Joe Louis vs Sonny Liston

True enough, but the rejection of his adopted hometown of Philadelphia, and continual rejection wherever he went after becoming champion finally beat it out of him. It destroyed him, just as Janis Joplin's high school classmates rejection of her at their tenth reunion tore the spirit out of her. (Winning the biggest prize in sports, or becoming an international rock superstar didn't change the way they were treated by those who mattered to them. That's why people are best off when contented with themselves. This is what it means to be truly empowered.)

 

Fair enough. The scenario I would propose for Louis would then be a clear cut decision win. Joe would simply score more than Sonny, if neither crumbled. If Sonny wasn't going to crack mentally, then the fact he couldn't intimidate Louis would still deprive him of a usual advantage. Galento and Braddock weren't afraid of Louis either, yet Joe took them both out in timely fashion.

 

Liston 6th round KO

 

Galento and Braddock were comparatively non-threats.

Intimidating guys like Dempsey, Duran, Liston, and Tyson were intimidating -but that was really a byproduct of a reality. The reality was their proven capabilities to inflict serious physical harm on strong men.

In time, their intimidating presence gave them an edge with purses and with pansies, but the moment they relied on it to get by, they crashed down to earth.

1959 Liston was as close to a complete HW that I ever saw. He was physically far more imposing than Louis and his skills were surprising good. He also was dead serious in getting that title.

 

True, but nonetheless, Joe had to get off his butt to take them out. He didn't have them scared stiff going in, as he did Max Baer.

I don't believe Liston had Louis's skill at slipping blows, and I think this would be crucial to the eventual outcome. Once again, it comes down to who's better at hitting without getting hit.

Sonny had the best offensive jab I've viewed of any heavyweight. Of the boxers in all divisions who have come since, I think Hagler's southpaw jab compares most closely to Sonny's ramrod left. But Liston didn't have the speed Joe possessed, and even if he did, the shorter distance Louis's punches traveled would make up for it. Galento's left hook was a dangerous weapon, and Tony had an iron jaw. Two-Ton lacked the discipline to stay low, after decking Louis. Both Baers had tremendous power and size, moreso than Liston, and nobody had been able to drop Max Baer. (Nor do I think Louis would have, if Maxie was as committed to winning as Joe was.)

When I look at how Louis jabbed Baer, Blackburn's practice of tying Joe's right wrist to the corner of the ring in training becomes evident. By getting down low enough so that his body made a straight line from his right foot to the end of his left arm, he was able to maximize the length and power of his jab in snapping Baer's head back. Combining that with his speed, Joe might have been able to jab with Sonny (whose arms were not as long as his overall reach has led fans to believe-more of it was concentrated in his collarbone than usual).

I'll have to look more closely at footage of Liston, to carefully examine just how adept he was at slipping punches. I'm not that impressed with what little I've watched so far. (I keep forgetting to tune out Sonny's offense when viewing his clips.) My speculation is that Sonny would have problems with an opponent capable of slipping his jab on the way in, and I think an aggressive counterpuncher like Joe could have turned the trick.

What are your thoughts?

 

Louis would knock Liston out late.

 

I'd go with Louis, although this is one of those fights that could go both ways. I think Louis' superior handspeed & combinations would get him through.

 

Liston's hook was just as short as Louis', IMO. Watch the first Cleveland Williams fight.:good

 

In fact, I did view the first Liston/Williams match before typing the post you've commented on, but it never hurts to revisit such footage on a routine basis, especially when it's being viewed on a service like youtube, instead of enhancable 24 frame per second movie film on projecting equipment.

As I suggested previously, even if Sonny's hook was as short, then I postulate that Louis's speed might give him an edge here.

I enthusiatically admire Sonny's mid-ring use of his jab through the first several rounds of Liston's match with Leotis Martin. That footage up to Liston's left hook KD of Leotis makes for fine instruction in the proper use of an jab for offensive purposes.