Liston had awesome power but couldnt cut off the ring to save his life ,if you backtracked,he just plodded after you.Foreman was much more adept at it.
... and you base this on the Clay fight. Shalll we judge Foreman on the Axel Shultz fight? Or Ali on the Spinks fight? Or Tyson vs. Douglas? Liston didn't train and was 5 years past his prime. And even if you were right in your assertion, would you than concur with the following? Joe Louis had virtually no mobility, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means. Muhammad Ali couldn't fight on the inside, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means. Rocky Marciano couldn't stick and move, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means. George Foreman's defense was porous, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means. Mike Tyson couldn't fight going backwards, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means. ....
Liston had serious skill for a man that size and with that thickness. His defense was actually very good -and you can witness him dealing with the aggression of Williams by slipping at least 5 or 6 jabs in round 1, weaving under hooks, slipping rights, blocking hooks, the whole gamut. He also pivoted well and stepped to angles to counter. If you also consider that his offensive arsenal was as complete as Louis's, then you'd have to agree that his skill set alone was far beyond any of Louis's opponents with the exceptions of Conn, Walcott, and Charles. Add to that the bonecrushing power behind every shot. Liston could smash rights to the body very well, even against shorter men. I agree that about the Liston jab. It was the single most powerful jab that I have ever seen. It is longer than anyone's -and he threw it long and stepped into it as well. It had textbook form. I have to say that Liston fought from a tighter position than you are acknowledging. He was prepared for the incoming and had a solid defense combined with athleticism. Out here it has become a fad to denigrate the man's speed. Liston was not fast, but he wasn't ponderous either, or at least his shots weren't. His left hook approached slashing during his prime. Cox did a thing on youtube called "The Big, Bad Bear" -watch the first minute or so and you'll see how long that jab really was. Also, the first round of the William's fight for an idea of his defense. Liston could fight close, mid-range, and particular long range. Prime Joe Louis would have a world of trouble dealing with that combination of strength, power, and skill. Conn troubled him mightily with skill... as did Tommy Farr. Strong guys like Carnera and the Baers had trouble... but Marciano combined strength and power and did well against a geriatric Joe who was stronger than the prime version in my opinion. The point is that Liston was physically stronger than all of Joe's opponents with the possible exception of Carnera, but he was so ackward and uncoordinated it is nullified. Liston may have hit harder than Marciano, shot for shot. And he was far more skilled than all of the simple "strong men" on Louis' record. You make good points when you talk about the geometry of the respective offenses. Louis's shot travelled shorter distances and were quicker to land. He knew how to step in close and explode lethal combinations that were perfectly placed. However, Liston's jab was not that easy to slip, and he angled off of it as well. This is done to set up the right -lining up the right heel with the other guy's chin is nicely done this way, behind the angling jab. Joe's slipping that jab and coming in could be met with a big right. Also, Liston was not easily dominated in close... he is skilled and very strong. Joe's only chance would be slipping and getting mid-range to maximize the force of his shots. But can you see him stopping Liston? I can't. Liston would eventually do more damage in a war of attrition.
If Liston was such a great boxer, fast & all that. why couldn't he touch a blinded Clay for two rounds? His jab would be a fine weapon against Louis. But Louis has too many weapons & would wear down the "Big ugly Bear" for a late round stoppage, like the Martin fight.
But not at that point of his career. He was still just a kid. Liston was at the pinicle of his career. Clay had a ton of talent, but still he was in the learning process. as his fight with Doug Jones proved. My point being. Liston had trouble with fighters with boxing ability. & Louis would make him pay for his misses. & wear Liston down for a late round stoppage.
Ali was indeed the greatest HW who ever lived. Was he arguably the greatest, p4p who ever lived apart from Robinson? That's a stretch. A big one. Unless you want to factor in "celebrity impact" which is outright nonsense. Could he outbox an in-shape Liston 5 years earlier while blind? Be serious. Liston brought nothing into the ring that night besides a reputation. Could Cassius Clay have beaten any HW that night in '64? No. He was still green and hadn't even grown up yet ("I just turned 22 years old!"). Ali in 1967 was far more formidable.
Ali was the greatest HW who ever lived. That is serious praise so don't pretend that I dismiss him; nor do you have to provide a well-tread litany of his accomplishments. I do however, have a low opinion of his division. Unfortunately for him, the HW division is historically the weakest of the major divisions. That hurts his claim.
He took dive against Ali. Or he had awful chin. He got jaw broke in one fight, in rematch he was down too agiains tguy who broke jaw---a lightheavy. Louis wins easy.
Shrink Ali down and he is a different fighter completely. Your whole argument becomes moot and lurches towards nonsense.
I don’t not see the greatness in Liston that so many see. At his best he was a hell of a fighter. Top 20 HW for sure. I just don’t put him in that upper echelon mainly because of his Ali showing. I think any other top ten HW puts on a much better fight then Liston in that first one and Joe was a top ten HW. He showed he was easily frustrated when the going got tough and didn’t adapt well. Couldn’t cut Ali off at all. Taking Joe in a tough one, wins mid rounds.
Have to agree. Joe Louis I can see what made him great ... Liston looked formidable but imo is still on a lower level than Louis. But there's guys that'll pick Liston H2H over almost anybody. Heck thay'd pick him over Ali given enough of a run-up.
30's Louis weighs in at 200lbs. Liston 215 lbs, but seemed to be stronger than what his "weight" indicated. Louis' hand speed finally TKO's Liston late in fight, though Louis probably has a "flash" knockdown or two during the fight.
