Joe Louis was lucky that Jack Johnson wasn't around!

Louis didnt duck Franklin. Jacobs was primed to sign Franklin for a Louis title defense which had already been negotiated and then Franklin got knocked out by two time Louis victim Bob Pastor. Had Franklin not lost that fight his title shot was assured. This was all well publicized at the time with Jacobs literally waiting with baited breath for the result of the Franklin-Pastor fight only to get the wind knocked out of him.

 

Indeed he did.

 

In reality it is inaccurate to say that Joe Louis ever ducked anybody while he was champion. Mike Jacobs was making all the decisions about Louis' opponents. Julian Black and John Roxborough were going along with whatever Uncle Mike decided.

 

So Franklin wins 17 something fights in a row. Louis waited him out. Lots of fights are negotiated that didn't happen. So Franklin eventually lost a match? Why not give him a shot, after all it was negotiated. One loss should not DQ Franklin. This was the 1930, everyone lost and many title opponents were on the weak side and would be viewed as raw meat today at heavyweight.

Franklin has 3 wins ( Could be more I'd have to count ) over guys Louis gave title shots to, proving he was better than they were plus a prime win over Jimmy Bivins.

As champion Louis could fight whomever the wishes.

 

And Franklin had four losses to men Louis had knocked out and would go on to get knocked out another three times by Louis victims. What is your point? Louis is a fighter, not a promoter. Promoters make fights and it was Jacobs who cancelled the Franklin fight not Louis. Louis fought anyone Jacobs put in front of him. Had Franklin been able to continue winning he would have gotten his title shot but he couldnt. Louis didnt wait Franklin out. That would entail Louis waiting until this supposed phenom just got old and couldnt win anymore. In reality when Franklin was knocked out by Pastor and blew the title shot he had waiting he was 25 years old and had been a pro less than five years. Franklin went on to win just two of his next nine fights and those two victories came against nobodies. Six of those losses were by stoppage. So quit acting like Louis was scared of some guy who had a very brief moment in the spotlight. Sometimes the window in which a fighter MIGHT deserve a title shot is too small for him to actually maintain that level of competitiveness. That was certainly the case here.

And dont give me that bull**** about Bivins being in his prime when Franklin beat him. Bivins was a young fighter who had been a pro a year and a half and had just moved up to LHW from MW when Franklin , a HW, beat him. Bivins fought on for more than a decade. Your bull**** excuses get stupider and stupider the longer youve managed to not get banned on this forum.

 

Sure Louis had 26 title defense, only two of which were vs black men. Do you expect us to believe only two were qualified or earned a title shot over such a period of time? One of them could not see well by the way, and the other he likely lost a 12 round decision to. Those are the facts. You don't own them and they speak volumes.

Louis, who did some civil rights works, could have asked for any fight he wished.

The fact that Franklin beat three white guys who Louis gave title shots doesn't mean much to you? We get it. That's not at excuse, its a fact.

What is this short window? 17 fights won in a row starting in 1940, going through 1941, and ending in 1942 is a widow, with quality talent beaten during the process some of whom were vs former title opponents to me is enough. When Johnson lost to say Choynski or Griffin, then I guess you can't say Jeffries was ducking him as he had two current losses and after , and double this after he lost to Hart. Did he have a window or not, because it seems to me Franklin's window was longer in terms of opponents beaten.

I don't see Louis fighting Ray, Thompson, or Bivins for the title either. Maybe because neither were easy bum of the month types. Keep your edge, its wasn't makes you special but just remember you don't own the facts and those who do you won't allow you to just bowl them over. them. It must be a flaw of yours, has it cost you much in life? We see it every time you're banned and come back with newer name. I myself like Klompton and Klompton1 bit better.

-M

 

Reading the excellent trilogy by John Ochs one can see how frustrating it must have been for Jack Hurley,wheeler dealering Franklin into position for a title shot only to see him come out guns blazing and shoot his load and then get stopped once his gas tank had emptied.
The poster you are replying to has a history of never giving credit to Louis.

 

Johnson lost to Choynski and Griffin in 1901 rather a different situation!

 

Fact is, that after Franklin lost to Pastor, his window was closed forever. There was only time for one more title defense by Louis after Franklin lost to Pastor. After Franklin suffered his devastating defeat to Pastor, Jacobs chose Abe Simon for the Louis fight, figuring he would be a bigger draw than either Franklin or Pastor on the basis of Abe having gone 13 strong rounds with Louis and busting Joe up pretty good in the process. So, Jacobs figured he could better sell that fight to the public on the theory that Joe still had unfinished business with Abe. The reason there was no time for more defenses after that was that Louis was inducted into the army the day after the Simon fight and could not defend his title again until 1946. By then, Franklin had lost 7 of his next 9 fights and had been pronounced dead due to a brain injury suffered in his last fight in 1944.

The reason Franklin didn't receive a title shot prior to the Pastor fight is that he had not yet worked his way up the ladder of the ratings. The Pastor fight was to be the fight which would bring Lem into the public eye as deserving the title shot. That's just the way it was. Louis didn't duck Franklin. Lem just fell short by tripping on the last rung of the ladder.

 

I think that it just was not Franklins night there in Cleveland, it appeared that the night was being set up to crown Franklin as number one challenger, the NBA rating guys were present, Louis himself and Jacobs was ringside, boxing writers thronged the venue, Franklin was the betting favourite and there was a indoor record for Cleveland of over 13000 fans in the stadium.

Should Franklin have got earlier bout with Louis, possibly, however a crowning ceremony of a bout was made for him and Lem fell on way to his coronation.

It has to be said Franklins career went into rapid and dramatic freefall after the Pastor loss and of course his last bout brought about his early death at age of 28.

 

So who were these black fighters Louis ducked and when exactly? I hate to break it to you but Ray was a complete nobody with a ridiculously padded record prior to the war and lost his chance at fighting Louis when he was beaten by Walcott, who Louis defended against. The best heavyweight fighters Thompson faced prior to Louis entering the war were Pastor, who beat him twice, Simon who he drew with, and Musto who he drew with. All Louis victims and none of them was Thompson able to beat. And had you actually seen him fight, like I have, you wouldnt be parroting the hipster bull**** that Thompson was some threat. He was slow as molasses and as ordinary as they come. Jimmy Bivins had exactly one win over a heavyweight prior to Louis entering the service. He had spent most of his time as a middleweight and light heavyweight and had lost to Pastor and Musto. After the war he drops three straight at a critical time when he could have made a case for deserving a title shot. Clearly he didnt deserve it more than Walcott, who he lost to and who got that title shot. And frankly when Bivins actually did fight Louis he looked like a scared pigmy and ran all night long, against a totally shot Louis who had nothing but his jab left. Its pretty clear that the men Louis was fighting were no worse than any of these guys so please spare me the horse**** that he was ducking black fighters.

 

Louis in his autobiography stated Jacobs was reluctant to match him with blacks in title defences saying they did not draw big gates.Louis pushed for the Lewis fight.That said I don't see any standout black challengers Louis avoided.

 

It is certainly true that Jacobs was reluctant to risk his almighty dollar by backing a fight between two black men. In retrospect, that might be a mark against him, but not against Louis. At the risk of re-opening Pandora's Box, I will say that when it comes to the second- and third-tier white heavyweights who Louis faced during his title reign, Jacobs could just have well matched Louis against black fighters like Eddie Blunt, Willie Reddish, and Roscoe Toles. Each of these guys were in and out of the Top 10 during Louis' title reign. In particular, Reddish was an attraction in Philadelphia and Toles in Detroit. Blunt was from New York where he would have had trouble standing out from other contenders, but still he could have been fit in someplace.

I must emphasize, though, that these black fighters were not recognized at the time as contenders comparable to the caliber of Schmeling, Galento, Pastor, Conn, and Nova, all fighters who were more highly rated when they fought Louis. So it can't be claimed that Louis was ducking them, only that Jacobs wasn't giving them the same opportunity as the other second-tier heavyweights who were white.