johannson vs ali......

:-(

 

I'm not going to claim that Floyd Patterson's chin was made of "glass" per say, but I don't think that it was exactly "granite" either... Most of the biggest punchers he ever faced, stopped him early, while a fair number of other men, who were "moderate" hitters managed to send him to the canvas. I would probably rate his chin somewhere between a C+ to a B-.. It might have been a bit better than that, but I don't think we saw very many instances to warrant a rating that was much higher.

 

Two, exactly two.

And he wasn´t floored once a fight went beyond 4 rounds. There is a reason for that: stage freight. His chin was average.

 

Exactly.. The biggest punchers he ever fought were most likely, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston and Ingemar Johannson.. Two of those three men KO'd him on a combined four occasions, so my assesment of "most" was correct... Asside from those three, I really can't think of any others who truly fell into the category of "Big puncher." Sure, Quarry, Bonavena and even a prime Ali were men who could crack on occasion, but don't fit the bill. There certainly aren't any Joe Frazier's, George Foreman's or Earnie Shaver's on that record.

Perhaps, but he was still decked on a combined 18 or so occasions in his career, either in victory or defeat, and some of those were by men like Pete Rademacher and Roy Harris... Say what you want about "stage fright", and you may very well be correct, but I don't know EVERY one of those knockdowns were due to having cold feet. I think at the end of the day, his durability may have had something to do with it as well.

Agreed.. Hence my grading of C+ to B-....

 

Ali was too resilient for Ingemar, even if Ingo put him down I would expect Ali to get off the floor.

 

Three not four. You forgot Chuvalo. Do you think Dempsey has a better chin? Or Tyson?

His durability was just fine. Stage freight was the main reason, another one was his style. He was often off-balance with his looping left hook and put down due to that - see the Rademacher fight - especially in the first few rounds when "he had cold feet".

I don´t like these kind of gradings, they are very inaccurate.

 

I don't know how most historians or even fans view Chuvalo when it comes to the punching category, but if you want to throw him into the mix, then fine... We'll revise things and say this, on the 6 occasions that he faced his hardest hitting foes, he was stopped early on 4 of them.

I think the best way to answer that is to look at who they tested their chins against.. Tyson survived the artillary of Frank Bruno, Bonecrusher Smith, Razor Ruddock and a few others. I can't think any punchers who dempsey faced that hit on that level, but I suppose its subjective.

I can see some of those knockdowns as being attributed to the reasons that you provided, but to write off all of them as having nothing to do with his tendency to go down from the force of a punch, seems like excuse making.

Well, you said so yourself that his chin was "average." In the United States, the most common collegiate grading system ranges on a scale that looks like this:

A - Outstanding

B - Above average

C - Average

D - Below average

F - Failing

For the record, you called his chin " average ", while I gave him a grading of C+ to B-, suggesting that it ranged from average to slightly above average... If you think that its innacurate or unfair, then feel free to provide your own system..

 

:huh He was stopped 5 times. Three times by KO and twice by TKO without beeing floored. Where did you get that four from?

Nevertheless Tyson was stopped as often - in less fights - than Patterson. Yes, he faced more punchers and I think he had a better chin. I just want to point out that getting floored and stopped doesn´t necessarily mean you have a bad chin.
Dempsey is often credited with a good chin, still he was knocked out by Flynn in one round and put through the ropes by Firpo. IMO Patterson´s chin wasn´t worse than Dempsey´s.

I took Tyson and Dempsey for a reason. I rank them all in about the same bracket at hw and they have a roughly comparable style.

I agree, not all of them but most. And so did Louis. But just like Patterson he did get up and beat his opponent most of the time. IMO this ads to their greatness.

I´m not American, in fact until I read your post I didn´t know the grade system in the US. Over here it´s different. We have 6 grades, not 5 or 15 points in higher education pre-university.
Like I said I don´t like grading here, I prefer comparisons to other fighters.

 

Even if i am a dedicated Ingo fan i say that Ali takes this one.
But if a young Ali decides to clown around,not take him serious like he did in the first Cooper fight when he got caught by that left hook.I dont see him rise that easy from Johanssons right if he is caught flush.

 

Ah you're right.. Still doesn't bode well for his chin though.

Good point, but I also mentioned earlier, that Patterson has faced very few men who were truly hard punchers, was stopped by the ones who were, and floored by a fair number of others who weren't.. I think that when looking collectively at his WHOLE career, one can safely conclude that his chin was average. And yes, its perfectly valid to use stoppages, KO's and knockdowns as critera for rating a chin, as long as you look at the whole picture, which I've clearly attempted to do..

Dempsey is often " credited " as being a lot of things, including a dominant world champion, despite the fact that he sat on the title for three years, and never faced the concencus best challenger.. That's fine.. I don't think his chin was proven against anyone of substantial power, and nor do I think Patterson's was to any great extent either....

I personally don't rate them together, but let's not derail the subject.

In all fairness, Louis rose off the canvas to win against men like Buddy Baer, Tony Galento and Joe Walcott ( all big hitters. ) patterson only rose off the canvas to beat one big hitter, and that was Johannson. Louis was also only stopped twice in 70 bouts, whereas Patterson was stopped five times in 64.... Incidentally, I don't consider Louis as having a "granite" chin either, but I agree that both men had heart and proved various degrees of greatness.

That's fair, but when you said average, I felt it was easier to tag a grade lable to it.. Let's try something else

A - Muhammad Ali

B - George Foreman

C - Floyd Patterson

D - ken Norton

F - Bruce Seldon

 

The left hooks that put Ingo out in the first Patterson fight would have given any fighter in history a serious concussion. They were historical, career defining moments for Patterson- and it took 2 perfect knockdowns to do it. One knockdown like that could have been enough for most. Ingo was colder than a kipper.
I have always found Ingo hard to rate. In 58-59 he delivered stunning knockouts over the best 2 heavyweights in the world, neither had been knocked out before. At that point ingos form is pinpoint sensational against the best level. Then he was out of the ring a year and possibly ruined by Patterson in the rematch and never the same again.
There was no hope to return to that form in 59' after that point. Since Ingo was never in quite the same shape again we will never know if there was any improvement or desire beyond that peak when he took the title.
It was a 2 fight peak. With hindsight of a career overview Ingo doesn’t rate too well but I believe for a short time Ingo could be a good match for the best.
Does Ingo’s 2 fight peak match the Ali of the Terrell fight? Of course not.
I do however, think that peak version of ingo would represent a key test for Ali. I don’t think many champions but a driven Patterson could have iced ingo the way he did and I know that nobody Did KO machen the way ingo did..

 

I agree with that overall.
btw. of the 18 times Patterson got knocked down, six were against Liston. Something that should be considered.

Yeah, I agree with that. There is much mythology about Dempsey and I think he does better h2h than his record suggests.

I know, just wanted to make clear that I didn´t pick those two out of the blue.

Louis is in another league to Patterson. Louis is in another league compared to any hw not named Ali. But both had the tendency to get knocked down and both got up to win more often than not.

Where would you put Dempsey and Tyson there?

 

Funny how Patterson fought the likes of Muhammad Ali (2x), George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena and a myriad of other fighters with proven chins, but somehow, we never saw those " left hooks " again... I guess Johannson was unfortunate to be the only one to fall victim to such a randomly magnificient phenomenon. It's equally funny, that asside from Patterson ( a decent but modest hitter ), that Johannson never faced anyone else who history regards as a truly big puncher...

 

Patterson changed his style post Liston and he was never as fired up again as he was for the 2nd Johannson bout. Could have something to do with that.

 

Tyson probably goes alongside Foreman.. I realize that George was stopped far less than Mike was, but both men were stopped for different reasons, and in truth, Tyson probably took more shots from harder hitting men, so I'd say they come close... Dempsey probably gets a C.