johannson vs ali......

did you see the vid I posted? Ali clearly chaLlenges him and he must be better then the guys ingo had been fighting lately.
I guess it's fine to say that he wasn't worth fighting at the time, but soon after that he qould become a great fighter, so I guess ingo didn't want to risk it

 

ali could take it yet cooper would have iced him had ali not fell against the ropes cusioning his fall. who knows what would have hapened had ali's head bounced off the boards as it so easily could have? anyone who comes that close to giving a fresh, young ALI the only KO of his entire career has a world class punch. Ali has the best jaw of any champion after all?

Ingo proved his punch by knocking out machen.

utterly meaningless. lamar clark is an all time great going by KO percentage.

not durable by chuvalo or risko standards but rated fighters all the same. erskine beat rated willie pastrano and george chuvalo. Bodell beat a peak, rated joe bugner easier than joe frazier ever did and knocked out giant jack ohalloran when ken norton did not. you compared coopers knock down of ali an isolated incident like snipes against holmes but snipes did not KO rated fighters like cooper.

 

Displaying power in rare spurts does not hoist someone into world class recognition. Any heavyweight can spark any heavyweight on any given day, it doesn't mean they're all genuine punchers.. I also clearly mentioned a few posts back that Ali had 18 fights and was likely complacent when then that punch hit him out of no where.. And you can talk all you want about hypothetical scenarios of guys bouncing off of boards or whatever, fact is, it didn't happen.

Okay, well then I guess **** everyone from Foreman to Marciano who's careers are largely hallmarked by their KO percentages. We can just as easily turn that around and say that if Jimmy Young had padded his record with men like Jack Bodell, Joe Erskine, and Dick Richardson that he would have been a world class puncher too.

" rated fighters " are not synonymous with "durable" fighters, and frankly I don't see what these comparisons of yours are designed to do.. There are plenty of examples where lighter hitters stopped common opponents that their harder hitting counterparts could not... If you think that Jack O'halloran is a legitimate example to bolster an argument for Bodell hitting harder than Norton, then I guess the discussion is over..

Well he did KO a couple of promising young prospects in Johnny Duplooy and Floyd Cummings who are largely on par in the weak chin department as some of the guys that you're building Cooper's resume on, but somehow I don't think that's going to convince you of much...

 

but it WASNT rare for cooper to ice top opponents. so If you knock out world class opponents that are rated it dosnt give you a world class recognition as a puncher? cooper is not an ATG, but you cant say he wasnt a puncher.

because jimmy young would knock erskine up into the air and nearly break his back on a rope like cooper did? jimmy young would look like a one punch hitter against those? I have demonstrated that those guys were all rated contenders who beat genuine contenders in a strong division to get a ranking when there was only one champ. they were not journeymen to pad out a manufactured record as you want to belive.

naturaly some have beter chins than others but they are durable. rated fighters are real pro's who headline shows, sell tickets and make money, being durable is a requirement for the job.

because you know its not comparable. snipes was a fair contender but he did not knock world class fighters unconsious. cooper did. genuine count outs are rare. "h" was a puncher.:deal

 

You've made some valid points, and now I'll bow out of here with these last words...

In order to be a world class puncher in my book, you either have to:

A. Prove your power by convincingly stopping or Knocking out opponents of proven durability..

Or

B. If you don't fight men of proven durability, then at least be able to stop or KO a fair percentage of the less durable opponents that you DID FIGHT...

The problem that I have with Cooper being deemed as a " world class puncher " is that he has neither the track record of dispatching durable opponents, nor a large percentage of KO's against the men he DID FIGHT... It has to be one or the other, and I'll also ad that in many cases with TRUE world class punchers, there are some who have claims to BOTH...... Its fair to say that Cooper was a puncher who on occasion could crack, but not a "world class" puncher... There is a distinct difference, and displaying a few rare showings where he went over the top in thoroughly pounding cream puffs ( regardless of their ratings ), is not enough to cut it for me....

 

Yes, and the only thing I saw was about 30 seconds of fight footage, followed by Ali smack talking Johannson the way that he would go on to doing with all of his future 61 opponents.. Nothing unusual there...

Yes, the same way that he challenged Sonny Liston, only difference is that Ali was about 4 years older with at least 19 fights behind him, and a lot more public recognition.... Little bit different..

You mean like Eddie Machen who was 24-0 and in line for a title shot? Ali was 19 years old and barely a pro...

I don't know that I'd use the words " soon after." Ingo's career was basically finished after his third fight with Floyd Patterson in the spring of 1961.. At this point, Muhammad Ali was a prospect with maybe 5 pro fights, and would not emerge as a GENUINE contender until sometime in either late 1962 or early 1963... The simple fact of the matter is that the careers of these two men did not cross paths and are basically irrelevant to one another... There was another poster here a few years ago, who tried to build the same sort of case that Rocky Marciano ducked Sonny Liston, but refused to acknowledge that Liston had a mere 13 bouts when the Rock retired.... There are some matches that weren't meant to happen, and it shouldn't always be chalked up to one man "ducking" another...

 

trust me, when its your media event, for your upcoming championship fight, and some 19 year old is taunting you in front of everyone, your not going to hold back. He got his ass kicked, according to his own words

But I feel that it is fair to state that Ingemar was a great fighter, who packed a nutty right hand with power. That punch was awkward but devastating.

 

I accept you have given it a lot of thought, but I can’t get away from the thought that you simply don’t think cooper sparked durable guys because of "KO percentage".
Cooper got cut in a lot of fights and had to change tactics.
When he wasn’t getting stopped or knocking guys clean out cooper was jabbing his way to a point’s decision with blood running down his face. He was also out pointed a few times with his vision was impaired.
Some of the fighters cooper KO'd were out cold for a worryingly long time and were never the same again proving the impact was sufficient to put anyone asleep for at least 10 seconds.
To say somebody better could withstand that impact is to ignore the fact that sufficient generated force renders all human beings unconscious. It’s not how big or heavy the fighter or how world class they are, it is the impact generated in exactly the right place. And landing it at that level. Cooper did this. He is not an all time great, just a world class puncher.
To say the correct amount of generated force to put a fighter to sleep for minuets would not knock anyone else out is to say that a bolt from a stun bolt cattle gun would not put them to sleep either!
.

 

That wasn't exactly the way I presented my position mate. I have repeatedly stated that I was never impressed with Cooper's KO percentage NOR the men he stopped. Having a 49% KO percentage PLUS having your biggest stoppage wins coming against the calibur of fighters like Jack Bodell, Joe Erskine and Dick Richardson is a weak combination of credentials to bolster an argument for calling a guy a world class puncher.... To be "world class" ( key words there ), you have to fall into the category of a Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, Liston, or depending on who you talk to, even a Mac Foster... I don't even consider Ken Norton as being a world class puncher, yet he stopped better men than Cooper did, had a higher KO percentage and was usually only taken the distance by some of the most durable men of all time, i.e, Ali, Young, Cobb, etc...

To conclude, I don't think that arguing the point any further is going to do either of us any good.. I think the problem here is that you and I have two very different standards and ideas as to what separates an ordinary puncher from one of an elite level. Furthermore, it takes more than a few isolated performances to cement the claim of being a top level puncher... To give you an idea, there was once a very good and durable middle weight by the name of Sumbu Kalambay, who won multiple world titles and was only KO'd once in 64 professional fights... That one knockout, came in one round and with only one punch... You might conclude that the one man who delivered that punch was a world class puncher of tremendous hitting ability.......I wouldn't.......

 

Right now i love you Mr.Magoo:good
You are better with words than i am,guess i took one or two too many to the head:nut

 

He NEVER said that in fact he didnt want to talk about it at all,for the rest of his life.

 

Well ingo DID duck Ali because he didn't fight him, period. Maybe he wasn't a completely worthy opponent but he would become one in a few years.

 

Ingo didn't duck Ali. Ali had no business fighting a heavyweight champion at that stage.

That said, Ingo just aint got the feet to beat Ali, even that green. He'd lose a decision.

 

Really?!?! Oh well why didn't you just say so? If a world champion doesn't give just any loud mouth with no rating a title shot, then that automatically throws it into the "ducked" category.. That has to be the most professional comment that anyone has ever made on this forum, and frankly, I think we should make a sticky thread out of it.. Jeez, it sure is scary to think that there are probably about 10,000 guys out there right now that Wladimir Klitschko is shitting in his pants about fighting...

Oh why bother mentioning it? Totally irrelovent.. We all know that being a " worthy " opponent is by no means a requirement for challenging for the greatest title on earth.. The very notion isn't even conversation worthy..

Exactly,

Johannson gazed into his crystal ball, which he kept safely and secretely back in Gothenburg Sweden, and as soon as he saw Clay destoying Liston, Patterson, Folley and terrell, said

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If Floyd Patterson can stop Johansson twice i don't see how Ali couldn't do it.


Ali by TKO in midrounds.