John L Sullivan a decade or two later...

Sullivan appeared to have terrific natural skills .. he had fast hands, an iron chin, great physical strength and true one punch KO power ... he also had a champion's heart ... my thoughts are he had the skills to become a terrific M of Q fighter if he actually trained and was trained that way .. however, if he simply stayed the way he was, no sparring, no additional training for technique, ect I don't see him going that far ...

 

Terry McGovern did fine, I think they're quite similar style-wise.

 

I think that's a perfect comparison. Except McGovern lacked Sullivan's tremendous mustache.

 

Sullivan one decade later.

Billy Madden straightened out Sullivan's punches in mid-1881. When ever decade-shifted Sullivan's punches straighten, he should go after Jackson (first) and Corbett. Against both guys, he needs to be in very good condition and keep a good defense early on. He needs to get some good body blows in when those guys try to mix it. Corbett would sometimes gas a little when the rounds went into the later teens, but then get 2nd wind in a couple rounds; Sullivan should keep himself ready to drop the boom on Corbett if this happens. I think priming Sullivan should be able to beat 1891/1892'ish Jackson. (Of course, for the match to take place at all would require an attitude adjustment on Sullivan's part). I think Corbett is a harder match-up. I'd ask for a finish fight with Corbett. If Sullivan doesn't KO Corbett, but still paces well enough to keep from gassing out, and holds his ground with a still lethal punch, I really don't see Corbett having the stones to come in and try to finish a less than spent Sullivan; so at worst it would end up N.D. or N.C. like 1888 Sullivan-Mitchell or Corbett-Jackson.
It would be smart to fight Goddard just after he'd troubled Jackson, when his stock was high. Kill the body for a few rounds, then knock him out.
Train seriously for Slavin.

Wonder who would have been reigning champ c. 1891, if Sullivan were
born a decade later?
I'd try to get the championship before fighting Corbett (assuming Corbett wasn't champion).

1894-1897, some good guys coming along. Can Sullivan stay disciplined? Will he train? An in-shape Sullivan should dispose of Choyinski and Maher. Out of shape, anything might happen. Those guys could peg some.
An even greater risk is Fitzsimmons. In shape, Sullivan should beat Fitzsimmons down unless Bob catches John quick and hard; but at less than best shape, Fitz is a bit risk.
Corbett may still be looking for a rematch with Sullivan, especially as Sullivan's decication slips.

1898, Sullivan has a narrow escape vs Sharkey -- a guy Sullivan really should lay out; Jawn realizes he needs a trainer to keep him in shape. Can Sully find his Muldoon before he meets Jeffries in 1899? If so, what a fight! If not, the belt changes here.

 

You mean back when Fitz was trying to establish himself as the Number one middleweight in Australia? Maybe he should have fought the number one heavyweight in Australia before he did that, dont you think?

Just to get the time frame you are talking about right, this stems from the Jackson discussion. Jackson won his first Australian title in late 1886 (before that Jackson had been outclassed in his best test by Bill Farnan, whom Sullivan should have been criticised for not fighting, if anyone).

I suppose at this point, Jackson might have been a chance if Sullivan were in Australia and fighting, but realistically, he wasnt yet proven at the world class level. It wasnt until his victory over Godfrey and McAuliffe in 1888 that he started his World ranked run. and Peter Maher in 1889 that it started to become clear that he was the best fighter in the world. It is around this point (88-89) where Jackson could have been said to have been a decent fight for Sullivan. This is about the same time that Sullivan had just broken his arm against Cardiff and fought the draw with Mitchell. He was to produce his last hurrah where he was dragged from a dissipitated condition into camp by Muldoon and manged to produce his final special performance against Kilrain in 1890. After Kilrain he officially retired from the sport and wasnt going to fight again, although he did still participate in Stage shows and exhibitions. This is the same year that Jackson fought the draw with Joe Goddard and is the time roughly where Sullivan Jackson should have happened.

So, in 1889, when Fitz was an Australian Middleweight title contender, the actual Middleweight champion was Peter Boland. Boland had just claimed the title for a year or so, but he wasbeaten by Harry Downie. So, before Sullivan defends against Fitz, he should have probably fought Harry Downie. Or maybe he should have fought Lachie Thompson who was the English Champion that knocked out Downie.

I agree it would have been nice if Sullivan v Fitz happened, but it was never on the radar. In fact, their actual scheduled meeting that was prevented by authorities would have been considered a closer and more anticipated matchup than the one you suffested.

 

He did have a tremendous haircut, though.

 

I disagree. A good haircut. A tremendous one would be Yoko Gushiken.

 

That's not a haircut. That's a pubic hair transplant.

 

By the way, Godfrey is a strange choice to pick as a criticism for not fighting. I dont think there is any doubt that Godfrey was not in the same class as Sullivan. For the record, here is an interesting report of Godfreys fight with Jake Kilrain, which happened after Sullivan Kilrain. It is from the Boston Daily.


.Jake Kilrain of antV Godfrey met in a the Athletic Club tonight a ' who had been trained by in line Tho betting ranged from SlOO to to in his Godfrey had also trained assiduously for the and much of the in the odds placed on the men was duo solely to the fact that backers were in a At 9.C2 p. Kilrain entered tho foils wed closely by Kilrain was seconded by Muldoon and Jim tho with Earnest as Godfrey's seconds were Frank and Jack Peter Jackson officiated as Kilrain weighed about 193; 174. Time Wiis called at 9.58. Godfrey well back s Kilrain The men came together with on A couple of clinches Kilrain led loft for countered by Kilrain got in both hands on Godfrey's but tho force of the blow's were lost by Godfrey breaking The men came together and a number of blows for the Second led with his left on Godfrey's He seemed disposed to rush while the exercised more and stopped several ugly Kilrain got in his right on Godfrey's round by a which wag by Third landed a good left on Godfrey's T ing Some 10 latter followed at The round closed with a lead stop by had a light bruise under tho left Fourth swung a powerful fell short and the men froy played his right for the ribs as while Kilrain guarded tlie Godfrey cleverly ducked a wicked loft but soon after caught a punch in tho chest that caused him to Fifth led for the falling Godfrey taking the Kilrain for the second time caught Godfrey's head under his but cries from him to relinquish it. Godfrey was much the cooler of the two and in the infighting displayed much good again dor ged a wicked loft arm Kilrain caught him with his on tho cheek several Godfrey countering on the Godfrey's left temple was slight y Seventh essayed several two-handed drives at the who took bis time about but eventually scored a loft bander on his opponent's Kilrain appeared more ponderous than his agile but his close range was From tho eighth to the rounds the light progressed though the 10th and 11th wore marked by some hot Kilrain a waiting while to draw drove his loft on to Godfrey's was too far away to do any Ho drove a powerful loit into face and necU several and three times caught liim on the once while who wiis now wanned cleverly use of his left in at Kilrain started ill to slug mid endeavored to his were against of swings rained upon IiIn lie continued to hung on hut a In tho round would llim lo Init lo did not the iho a little ilme hy nnd He hud a lump over IiIn right 1'k'liiiMiiilh the Into Ids hut was urn far aw iiy id iln luiy Inst winit Im 111 tim Kilrain again null IiIm ilm 111 ru's Iml whun lie hi on the he dill to n Ihn 1,'h'onllfilU blows elicited much Kilrain seemed more powerful and forced Godfrey to give slipped to tho floor during the rapid exchange of blows near close of the Ho received three staggerers on the but came up smiling in the next was had up to this time taken enough punishment to wear out many but tho contest Wiis apparently no He continued to receive blows in the jaws and ears with heroic that seemed to nonplus the doughty Twenty-fourth Twenty-fifth loft punch from caught the negro the but he was too away to get full effects and Quickly Godfrey secured but two good blows to his in this while placing glove on the negro's hammered him repeatedly with his right on the Godfrey was knocked out in the 44th creel his First Defeat Suffered at the Hands of John Kilrain was born at L. Feb. 0,1859. He has in the ring since 1879, arid not until he met John L. at had he suffered a Since that time Jim Corbett of California bested him at New He has fought draws with Mike George Jem John and two with Jem ' has also gained as an He won the amateur junior championship in 1883, and in the same year was a member of a four-oared crew that won many amateur Jake's victories in the roped square are as follows Opponents and Jacob 2 1870 Jem 1870 Dan 3 Harry 3 S John 4 Jerry 2 8 Frank 1 John r. 4 Joe 2 Tom 4 Denny 4 Joe New 3 Frank New 4 New 3 Frank 3 George New 2 Now 3 1870 1878 1880 1883 1883 1885 1885 1865 188tt 1888 1886 1886 1886 1886 1887 1890 1800 1890 1800 1890 1800 1800 in Two Questionable Prince Edward George colored was born in Prince Edward March 20,1863. He before the public about the same length of time as his He has fought draws with Prof. George Isaac Talbot and two with Joe Ho has three defeats recorded against him two of that by Doherty and were Peter Jackson is the who has fairly lowered Godfrey's The victories that Godfrey has to his as Opponents and Ham 1870 6 Jim 1 Barney 2 3 Kohort 4 Jack Ed 1883 1885 188G 1H8S 1888 1880 1880 1800 1800

 

Sullivan actually beat other heavyweights, so Id have to go with him over Jeffries.

 

In sports, the first to do something achieved instant legend status, but that does not make them the best or among the best. Sullivan was a legend who bridged the gap between bare knuckles and gloves. Sullivan by the way preferred gloves as it allowed him to hit harder for longer periods of time. There is no doubt he glorified boxing.



But how good was Sullivan, and where would rate? Very few historians picked him in their top ten back in the 1950’s. Yet many of his predecessors such as Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey were almost always rated in the top ten. This to me is telling. When people talk of Sullivan, they mention his power. I think he had plenty in his right hand. In heavyweight boxing, a fighter with a lot of power will often blow away the field until he moves up in class. Sullivan’s resume of top beating top level gloved opponents is very thin.



He did not face Jackson or Slavin, and either would have been his best opponent by a good margin. The Slavin match was backed by Richard Fox, the editor of the Police Gazette. Sullivan pulled a Riddick Bowe, by trashing the belt. No fights with Killen ( a very interesting power puncher ), Goddard, McAuliffe, Dooley, Fitzsimmons, Maher, etc... While the window for some of these fights might have been narrow, a win or a draw with any of these names would tell us a great deal about Sullivan’s ability.



Skill wise, I think Sullivan was below Corbett, Fitz, Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey. He would have a puncher’s chance vs. any of them, but the reverse in many cases is also true, as Sullivan was floored by smaller men, and really did not have his chin tested in any fight I read, save the Klirain match.

 

No one from the 1950's was old enough to see Sullivan fight in his prime, their analysis is no better than ours. Here is what we know:

*He has more than 19 official wins. The fact that Jeffries only won 19 fights gets ranked above him is an atrocity.

*He had a 78% KO ratio, #8 all time for Heavyweight champions.

*He remained undefeated almost his entire career in an era where everybody had losses.

*He survived the bare-knuckle era and dominated the glove era. This feat alone should give him a permanent spot in the top 20 and status over Jeffries.

Here is my top 10 all time for 1950:

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Jack Johnson
4. Sam Langford
5. Bob Fitzsimmons
6. Gene Tunney
7. Max Schmelling
8. John L Sullivan
9. Jeff Jeffries
10. Harry Wills