John L Sullivan punching power vs Bob Fitzsimmons?

That is simply not true.

Contemporary accounts leave no doubt that he made extensive use of footwork, and was fast on his feet.

 

Here are some contemporary descriptions os Sullivan's stance and style, including some of his own writing about boxing technique.

Stance
The consensus of contemporary observers seems to be that Sullivan fought leaning forward with his weigh resting on his front foot. It seems that he threw straight punches from the shoulder and could really get his body behind the punches like Rocky Marciano. He seems to have used his crouch defensively and to have ducked low to avoid punishment.

“The secret of the champions prowess is apparent. He carries his strongly muscled shoulders forward. The consequence is that when he delivers a blow he doesn’t have to bring the upper part of his body forward in the delivery. The arm straightens out and the blow is with a suddenness which seems paralysing to the spectators, to say nothing of the man in front of him. He stands with one foot well behind and his body pressing forward”.

St Louis paper quoted by Adam Pollack

“The superiority of Sullivan lies in his extraordinary nervous force and altogether incomparable skill as a boxer. In what does this extraordinary skill consist? In hitting as straight and almost as rapid as light, in the variety and rediness of his blows, in standing firmly on his feet and driving his whole weight and nervous force at the end of his fist- a very rare and high quality in a boxer, in movements as quick and purposeful as the leap of a lion. He can duck lower than any featherweight boxer in America”.

John Boyle O’Reiley

Although Sullivan planted his feet and put most of his body weight behind his blows he seems to have also employed leaps to close distance or fire a punch over an opponents guard:

“Here again Sullivan showed the terrific force with which he delivers his blows jumping forward on his right leg and at the same time apparently and throwing the weight of his whole massive body onto his arms. The movement is executed with lightning like rapidity and it certainly seems that no man can stand up to it”.

San Francisco Chronicle

“The first thing a professor will teach a pupil is to stand in position. He will teach him how to turn his toes out spread his feet so many inches apart, and will try to convince the young man that this position is the only correct one in the world. Now I consider that this is all simple rot. My advice is to stand in whatever way is best suited for your purpouse-whichever way you can hit your opponent the straightest hardest blow and avoid a return by getting away quickly”.

John L Sullivan


Style
It is my contention that Sullivan was a Queensbury rules fighter first and foremost with an offensive come forward style. He seems to have been a rushing aggressive fighter who came forward from the opening bell and set a high work-rate. He also seems to have been a scientific offensive fighter who used a low crouch. The closest comparison on film would be somebody like Jack Dempsey or Floyd Patterson. He seems to have been a two fisted fighter for most of his career but he became dependant on his right hand after he broke his left against Patsy Cardiff. He threw wide punches early in his career but later straightened them and made them more compact.

"Sullivan’s style of fighting differed from that of any other pugilist that has entered the ring of late years. He is a rusher, and it is this quality and his tremendous hitting powers that really make him a great pugilist. Beside he is a skilful wrestler and a good infighter, quick to dodge and always on the alert for any opening an opponent may leave."

Times Democrat

“He can strike more heavy blows in ten seconds than any other man in a minute and watches with self possession and calculation. Other boxers begin by sparring but he begins by fighting and he never ceases to fight. Sullivan is fierce relentless tireless as a cataract. He does not waste ten seconds of the three minutes of each round”.

John Boyle O’Reiley

“I have seldom seen a man who advances the truth which is that Sullivan is as clever as any man. His unquestioned ability as being the hardest hitter ever seen has caused overlooking of the fact that his blow is always planted where it will do the most good either on the jaw or jugular. The truth is that Sullivan is a careful scientific fighter”.

Chicago Herald

“The essentials of a good fighter are pluck skill endurance and a good head on his shoulders. A man fights with his head almost as much as he does with his fists. He must know where to send his blows so that they will do the most good. He must economise his strength and not score a hit just for the sake of scoring it. I endeavour to hit my man above the heart or under the chin or behind the ear. A man wears out pretty soon if one can keep hammering away at the region of the heart, a blow behind the ear will knock a man out quicker than a hundred on the cheek or any other portion of the face”.

“Learn to strike straight and clean, swinging blows nearly always leave you open for your opponent. It is well to do your leading with the left reserving the right for any good openings. Wherever you hit your man with one hand let the other fist land in the same spot if possible”.

“Always watch your opponent. Just as soon as you see him about to lead shoot your left into his face. The force of him coming towards you will increase the blow considerably”.

John L Sullivan

 

These are all good quotes. I think the consensus here is Sullivan was a big puncher, and quicker than photos might make you think.

However I see very little here about defensive guard, blocking, slipping punches, countering, footwork especially laterally, use of a conventional jab, etc...

Corbett brought most of the above this to the game and advanced is from a scientific stand point. And Sullivan himself clearly stated that by Jeffries time he was light years ahead of him.

You could argue had Sullivan come along much later, he would learned the above. It is debatable.

 

Sullivan's defence is one area where the contemporary accounts leave a little bit of room for interpretation. He clearly used a defensive crouch like Jack Dempsey, but it is debatable to what extent he displayed head movement. I have found contemporary accounts that allude to it, but it is hard to be sure what exactly they are describing.

I don't think that Corbett brought anything new to the game, for whatever that is worth. Jem Mace was using a very similar style, long before his time.

 

Interesting post.

 

And how good was his opposition?:think

 

It was Choynski H E.

 

Fitz was a middle /super middle knocking out heavyweights,that's the big difference between him and Sullivan.

 

George Godfrey? Joe Goddard? He signed to fight Godfrey but later changed his mind.He would undoubtedly have been favourite to beat both.

 

I agree with McVey. Sullivan's competition wasn't great. He did not fight Slavin or Jackson. Nor did he meet the next tier down in Goddard or Godfrey.

In any time line a big puncher like Sullivan is going to look great vs. weaker opponents.

If I were to come up with a top ten from 1880-1895 for Sullivan to fight, my results would be something like this:

Jackson
Fitzsimmons
Corbett
Slavin
Goddard

Sullivan did not face a top 5 guy, nor did he beat legendary men like Jim Mace or Larry Foley. Foley was active before Sullivan. I'm not exactly sure about Mace's early records.

 

It is pretty clear to me that very few posters on this thread have read my book on Sullivan. But don't buy it. Wait until I come out with my new book on Sullivan which will be even better. Coming hopefully by the end of the year or early 2016.

 

The salient issue here is that none of these people were available until very late in Sullivan’s career, with the exception of Godfrey.

That being the case, it is hard to see what if anything these fights would have proved.

If these guys had beaten Sullivan, we would just point out that he was an alcoholic shell, who had lost most of the mobility of his left arm.

If Sullivan had somehow beaten them, then we would have to conclude that they were probably never that good in the first place.

 

I disagree with the last sentence. Goodard of Godfrey would still be viewed as good even if Sullivan had beaten them.

When was Silvain vs Sullivan offered by Richard K Fox? Sullivan declined here. The offer was prior to his loss to Corbett.