John L Sullivan v.s Jack Dempsey

Yeah, but as long ago as it is, we have pretty much information about Dempsey's fights, not to mention several of them are on film. Sullivan is protected here by the fact none of his work is on film. For all we know, he may have been knocked down by some feather fisted opponent - we'll never know. Also, under Sullivan's rules, you could throw someone to the ground and the round was over. So that makes the distinction even harder, especially if you consider that even WITH high quality film of modern fights, there are still discussions on whether something was a slip or a knockdown... only to have a slowmotion replay decide it. They didn't have that in the 1800's.

 

Yeah, I agree 100% with what you are saying.

Rating the older boxers is very hard. With Sullivan's era it is even harder. With a fighter like Dempsey, there is no doubt offensively he looks great on the limited film we have. But there are plenty of criticisms and unkowns, still. Realistically, we can only go on what we have.

In my opinion, you need to look at great fighter and assume that because they were great fighters in their day, they would be great fighters in any era. There is no doubt that Sullivan had a great chin in his era, even without film. Realistically, there is an argument that it hasnt been tested against big superheavy punches. But i dont think you can say he has a bad chin because of this. When considering ATGs i think that you need to assume that their questionables are in the positive unless they are tested.

For example, i dont think it would be fair to say that Rocky Marciano is knocked out with the first big punch he faced from Lennox Lewis, because Rocky was never ever knocked out by one punch. I think you need to assume that eras across the board are roughly similar. When you look at eras next to each other there are usually common themes. There are always younger fighters coming through. They are always without question (across the division as a whole) at some stage forced to fight most of the good fighters from the previous era. By this time the older fighters are never anywhere near as good as they were when they are in their prime. The results are always that the older fighters win occassionally or That the older fighters put up good fights but generally lose, with the fight being close enough to suggest that the younger versions of the old guys would have either won or made it a very close fight and eventually the older fighters start losing. I cannot think of an era where this has not happened. I tend to think that this suggests that as it happens time and time again, there is not that much difference between an era.

Interestingly, at the present time, we seem to be in a strange place. As this may be the first time that the new era cant seem to shake the old era. Despite guys like Golota, McCall, Sanders, Holyfield, and so many old timers who were never that great, even in their prime and arent in any special condition when they keep fighting all seem to not have too much trouble becoming the top contenders and competing with the young fighters of today. This will probably change soon and with time, but it certainly makes today a strange era.

Anyway the point of all that was to point out, that despite the different rules and lack of info and as hard as Sullivan v Dempsey is to pick, if you are picking, i think it is impossible to say that Dempsey had a better chin than Sullivan. Both had very good chins and if any was better it has to be Sullivan's as it has far less proven question marks than Dempspey's (not that i necessarilly put any weight on the question marks of Dempseys chin).

 

JD over John L. One could argue that Sullivan might have hit harder. But that is only one aspect of this fantasy match.

I think Dempsey was faster, employed a more mobile style, and was better on defense.

Sullivan was more of a stand and trade fighter, and I really have not read much about his left.

 

This really doesn't add anything to this interesting discussion, but I'm quite sure that John L. said in his later years that he had been at his best (physical peak)when he fought Paddy Ryan. The way he treated himself, I don't think his peak lasted too long.

 

why do they do that handspin for in those really old fights? it looks pathetic lol does it really help you in a fight?

 

i see, thanks, Ori. How did it help?

 

Hard to say. From reading john l's fight reports he basically sounds like jack dempsey himself but only he was usually the bigger man and never had any real competitive fights.

John l seems to be the more compact man but I think it's fair to call dempsey the bigger man here.

It's difficult imagining jack losing to someone smaller than him.

On the other side boxing rarely sees a hw champion as dominant as john l was.

Without seeing footage of john it's difficult making an informed opinion but counting for punching power, speed, chin and defence being roughly of an even quality I have to go for the bigger man especially when they're more proven.

Jack cut swathes through the biggest men of his era and he outboxed the smaller men. Sure he never fought wills and whilst that puts a ceiling on his legacy it doesn't really affect what we know as to how good he was.

The nature of styles points to a war here. I'd imagine jack stops john around the mid rounds.

 

A truly impossible match to make a reliable prediction about. I will make a couple of observations though:

I think that Sullivans power and handspeed were comparable to Jack Dempseys in general terms. It is clear from contemporary descriptions, that we are dealing with something verry similar.

I would give the size advantage to Sullivan if anything. Dempsey is taller and has a longer reach, but Sullivan is clearly much more built.

As a finisher Sullivan was similar to Dempsey in many ways, and at least as destructive against the top contenders of his own era.

So what does this tell us?

Not verry much at the end of the day.

On one hand Sullivan might, while being very similar to Dempsey stylisticaly, lack a critical technical development or two that would make him unable to compete with Dempsey.

On the other hand, he might be a better all round version of Dempsey.

The contemporary descriptions, detailed though they are, leave both scenarios eminently possible.

 

I wonder at Sullivan's comments during Jeffries' reign that the game had developed so much since his time that he would be out of his depth versus the Boilermaker... Did he really believe this and was this really the case? Or was he just being deferential, the kinder gentler John L?

 

Hard to say, Sullivan was verry inconsistent on the issue.

One thing that I would say, is that the contenders of Jeffries era as a whole, probably do represent a clear advance over those of Sullivans era.

What confuses the issue, is the fact that Sullivan himself is so far ahead of his contemporary field, that he might as well have parachuted in from a different era.

 

For those of you that know this stuff, who would be the physically stronger man?

Dempsey is said to be strong in the clinch and trained in wreslting. John L is built like a bear and im assuming there was alot more clinching in his era.

 

Excellent questions and a pretty solid post !

 

They didn't call him the Boston Strong Boy for nothing. Dempsey was out-wrassled in his career in exhibitions. Sullivan, later trained by wrestler William Muldoon, was not only supposed to be superhumanly strong (tales of lifting trollies off their tracks) but a good, well-trained grappler.

I'm going with the drunkard over the pimp with dancer's legs.

 

Tales of lifting trollies v what we saw from Dempsey in real life?

YOu have to go with the reality, not the possible bull****. Dempsey wins, despite benig somewhat overrated.

Lucky for them they had racial overtones in their eras or Jack Johnson would have mushed them both. Lol actually thats almost theoretically possible in age matchups! Age disparity would spoil any chance of an equal fight, sadly.

 

Sullivan would be in trouble here. He didn't blast out anyone decent early, and was never tested vs top level glove fighters outside of Corbett.