john l sullivan vs David haye..who wins ?

John L Sullivan - 92,000
David Haye - 224,000

 

Have you got some film of Sullivan fighting for us to see? Or are we supposed to just read some old newspapers & guess how good he was? :think

 

Obviously, you are asking a lot of us to make an informed prediction.

Two fighters 130 years apart with devastating power, top notch hand speed, and ring generalship maried to unorthodox self made styles.

This thread basicaly turns on understanding Sullivan, because we have all seen Haye fight.

I personaly think that Sullivan would win because of his style (as I interpret it). Sullivan was more durable, more scientificaly agresive and used a low crouch. This would make Hayes "come and get my chin its not a trap" strategy varry dangerous.

 

I have produced a detailed breakdown of Sullivan's style, strengths and weakneses, based on contemporary acounts, for whatever it is worth.

 

Best I can do with the available data.

 

Here is Sullivan's record straight from CBZ (but without the exhibitions).

1879
Jack Curley (1:14:00) W
Johnny "Cocky" Woods TK 5
Dan Dwyer TK 3
Tommy Chandler W 4
John A. "Patsy" Hogan W 4

1880
George Rooke KO 3
John Donaldson KO 10

1881
Jack Stewart TK 2
Steve Taylor TK 2
John Flood KO 8
Fred Crossley KO 1
Dan McCarty KO 1
"Captain" James Dalton KO 4
Jack Burns KO 1

1882
Paddy Ryan Mississippi City, Ms W 9
-Heavyweight Championship of America;
Apr 20 John McDermott Rochester, NY TK 3
Jul 4 Jimmy Elliott Brooklyn, NY KO 3
Jul 17 "Tug" Wilson (Joe Collins) New York, NY W 4
Sep 23 Henry Higgins Buffalo, NY TK 3
Oct 16 S.P. Stockton Fort Wayne, In KO 2
Oct 30 Charley O'Donnell Chicago, Il KO 1
Nov 17 Jordan Rentzler Washington, DC TK 1
-Police intervened; Rentzler died a few days later
1883
Jan 25 Harry Gilman Toronto, Ont, Can KO 3
May 14 Charlie Mitchell New York, NY TK 3
Aug 6 Herbert Slade New York, NY TK 3
Oct 17 James McCoy McKeesport, Pa TK 1
Nov 3 Jim Miles East St. Louis, Il TK 1
Nov 25 Morris Hefey St. Paul, Mn KO 1
Dec 4 Mike Sheehan Davenport, Ia TK 1
1884
Jeff Tomkins Butte, Mt KO 1
Jan 12 Fred Robinson Butte City, Mt TK 2
Feb 1 Sylvester Le Gouriff Astoria, Or KO 1
Feb 6 James Lang Seattle, Wa KO 1
Boiquet Victoria, BC, Can KO 1
Mar 6 George M. Robinson San Francisco, Ca WF 4

Apr 10 Al Marx Galveston, Tx KO 1
Apr 29 Dan Henry Hot Springs, Ar KO 1
May 1 William Fleming Memphis, Tn KO 1
May 2 Enos Phillips Nashville, Tn KO 1
Nov 10 John M. Laflin New York, NY KO 4
Nov 18 Alf Greenfield New York, NY W 2

1885
Jan 12 Alf Greenfield Boston, Ma W 4
Jun 13 Jack Burke Chicago, Il W 5
Aug 29 Dominick McCaffrey Cincinnati, Oh W 7

1886
Sep 18 Frank Herald Alleghany City, Pa W 2
Nov 13 Paddy Ryan San Francisco, Ca KO 3
1887
Jan 18 Patsy Cardiff Minneapolis, Mn D 6
-Pollack reports that Sullivan broke a bone in his left arm
1888
Jan 5 William Samuells Cardiff, Wales KO 3
Mar 10 Charlie Mitchell Chantilly, Fr D 39
1889
Jul 8 Jake Kilrain Richburg, Ms KO 75
-Heavyweight Championship of America;
London Prize Ring Rules and bare-knuckles were used;
Pollack considers this bout to be a Heavyweight
Championship of the World contest
1891
1892
Sep 7 Jim Corbett New Orleans, La LK 21

Looking at Hayes record, he certainly has enough early KOs to hang with Sullivan, although obviously, he has that KO loss to a fighter, who i think we all agree wouldnt hold a candle to the great John L, so that has to be a worrying factor. The other thing to remember about David Haye, is that he is very much an unknown factor at the moment. We dont even really know whether he is at the top echelon of world class. Some think he is, some think he isnt. He struggled with Valuev, but fair is fair, he did win the fight against a tough opponent despite not producing the KO (something Prime Sullivan never failed to do in a decent length fight). Certainly the power of Valuev seemed to worry Haye a little, so it is almost certain that the harder hitting Sullivan would have Haye very, very cautious.

Haye is still very unproven, if he beats the two Klitchskos then we can say that he is a world class fighter, and to be honest, i think his all time stock rises massively if that happens. But it is a big if. There is every chance that he cant handle Proven world class power like Sullivan brings to the table. If Wlad or Vitali KOs him with the first few clean blows they land, then i think that Haye has negligible chance in this one. In fact on current evidence as it stands (his one KO loss) you would have to question Hayes chin at this level. But remember it is unproven not poor.

For Haye to win, no matter what happens he will have to lift to another level and show heart beyond most fighters. We know John L can do it because of his past prime performances, we dont know if Haye can. Stylistically, things are pretty hard to guage. It is quite ironic that John L will have the high guard and Haye the low guard. i think that low left hand of Hayes leaves himself open for the John L right cross and left lead straight down the pipe, which is his bread and butter.

Saying this, to be fair, John L's two hands forward guard does tend to leave himself open for a David Haye side step and counterpunch. Which incidentally is something he does very well. I think if he is to win, he needs to land hard and land early.

Realistically, i see Haye making this a great fight early on with both fighters making a fight of this, and Haye's counterpunching giving him the early rounds even. The problem is that i think somewhere along the line, say around the 7th or 8, and maybe even after a couple of Knock downs, Sullivan will just keep coming and Haye will start to tire and take punishment. Eventually, i see Sullivan's superior stamina and heart taking over and him winning by about a 9th round knock out.

 

Gloves or no gloves ?

 

Oh the dog's bollocks!!

John L. Sullivan was a fraud!

His record consisted of travelling America by rail car knocking out Hobos for $50 a pop. Haye would destroy him in 30 seconds.

Have you seen the build of that man?? A bloated gut suffering from dissantary!

 

James J. Corbett beats both of them.

 

"Sullivan's superior stamina"?????? WTF? That's hilarious. He threw 3 punches a round!