john l sullivan vs David haye..who wins ?

That's all he had to throw.

 

Haye is a POS and i really dislike him, but if under modern rules, he beats the dinosaur rather easily.

 

Post or link to it. :good

 

In the corbett fight maybe.

 

Haye has stamina problems,if it were a 10 or 12 round fight he would probably win but if it were just allowed to keep going as it was in Sullivan`s day Haye would be stopped.He would be ****ed.

 

Not a fan of Haye to put it mildly. But this would not be close at all, Haye by knockout.

 

John L. Sullivan is an all-time great, rated by many of those who saw him as the greatest fighter ever, and others put him on a par with Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis at least.
He was a great fighter.
Haye is not great at all.
Sullivan beat him.

 

The fantasy match-ups are only an intriguing read when there's actually footage of the two fighters to analyze. Otherwise it's anybody's guess.

In the case of Sullivan there are barely any descriptions of his fighting style.

 

Sullivan himself said boxing progressed by the time Jeffries was champ. He was also only around 190lbs and 5'10 in his prime

 

Oh come on now, Haye would demolish him whatever rules they fight under.

 

Boxing did progress, with the bareknuckle competitions being a thing of past, but to what extent we do not know. The image I have of Sullivan is an aggressive, crouching fighter who liked to get the job done in the clinches. It worked well in his time.

 

I have to correct you there.

Sullivans prime weight was nearer 210lbs and he fought exhibitions at around 230. His tale of the tape also speaks of a verry solidly built 5' 10'' heavyweight.

I would say that he was about the same size as Joe Frazier.

 

Reconstructing the style of John L Sullivan

All of the following statements are taken from men who actually saw John L Sullivan spar from Ringside. They therefore represent a first hand account of his style. Most of the quotes have been take from Adam Pollack’s biography of John L Sullivan.

“He can strike out with either right or left and knock a man down with as much ease and grace as an accomplished lady can gently and languidly open an opera fan”

National Police Gazette


Stance
The consensus of contemporary observers seems to be that Sullivan fought leaning forward with his weigh resting on his front foot. It seems that he threw straight punches from the shoulder and could really get his body behind the punches like Rocky Marciano. He seems to have used his crouch defensively and to have ducked low to avoid punishment.

“The secret of the champions prowess is apparent. He carries his strongly muscled shoulders forward. The consequence is that when he delivers a blow he doesn’t have to bring the upper part of his body forward in the delivery. The arm straightens out and the blow is with a suddenness which seems paralysing to the spectators, to say nothing of the man in front of him. He stands with one foot well behind and his body pressing forward”.

St Louis paper quoted by Adam Pollack

“The superiority of Sullivan lies in his extraordinary nervous force and altogether incomparable skill as a boxer. In what does this extraordinary skill consist? In hitting as straight and almost as rapid as light, in the variety and rediness of his blows, in standing firmly on his feet and driving his whole weight and nervous force at the end of his fist- a very rare and high quality in a boxer, in movements as quick and purposeful as the leap of a lion. He can duck lower than any featherweight boxer in America”.

John Boyle O’Reiley

Although Sullivan planted his feet and put most of his body weight behind his blows he seems to have also employed leaps to close distance or fire a punch over an opponents guard:

“Here again Sullivan showed the terrific force with which he delivers his blows jumping forward on his right leg and at the same time apparently and throwing the weight of his whole massive body onto his arms. The movement is executed with lightning like rapidity and it certainly seems that no man can stand up to it”.

San Francisco Chronicle

“The first thing a professor will teach a pupil is to stand in position. He will teach him how to turn his toes out spread his feet so many inches apart, and will try to convince the young man that this position is the only correct one in the world. Now I consider that this is all simple rot. My advice is to stand in whatever way is best suited for your purpouse-whichever way you can hit your opponent the straightes hardes blow and avoid a return by getting away quickly”.

John L Sullivan


Style
It is my contention that Sullivan was a Queensbury rules fighter first and foremost with an offensive come forward style. He seems to have been a rushing aggressive fighter who came forward from the opening bell and set a high work-rate. He also seems to have been a scientific offensive fighter who used a low crouch. The closest comparison on film would be somebody like Jack Dempsey or Floyd Patterson. He seems to have been a two fisted fighter for most of his career but he became dependant on his right hand after he broke his left against Patsy Cardiff. He threw wide punches early in his career but later straightened them and made them more compact.

Sullivan’s style of fighting differed from that of any other pugilist that has entered the ring of late years. He is a rusher, and it is this quality and his tremendous hitting powers that really make him a great pugilist. Beside he is a skilful wrestler and a good infighter, quick to dodge and always on the alert for any opening an opponent may leave.

Times Democrat

“He can strike more heavy blows in ten seconds than any other man in a minute and watches with self possession and calculation. Other boxers begin by sparring but he begins by fighting and he never ceases to fight. Sullivan is fierce relentless tireless as a cataract. He does not waste ten seconds of the three minutes of each round”.

John Boyle O’Reiley

“I have seldom seen a man who advances the truth which is that Sullivan is as clever as any man. His unquestioned ability as being the hardest hitter ever seen has caused overlooking of the fact that his blow is always planted where it will do the most good either on the jaw or jugular. The truth is that Sullivan is a careful scientific fighter”.

Chicago Herald

“The essentials of a good fighter are pluck skill endurance and a good head on his shoulders. A man fights with his head almost as much as he does with his fists. He must know where to send his blows so that they will do the most good. He must economise his strength and not score a hit just for the sake of scoring it. I endeavour to hit my man above the heart or under the chin or behind the ear. A man wears out pretty soon if one can keep hammering away at the region of the heart, a blow behind the ear will knock a man out quicker than a hundred on the cheek or any other portion of the face”.

“Learn to strike straight and clean, swinging blows nearly always leave you open for your opponent. It is well to do your leading with the left reserving the right for any good openings. Wherever you hit your man with one hand let the other fist land in the same spot if possible”.

“Always watch your opponent. Just as soon as you see him about to lead shoot your left into his face. The force of him coming towards you will increase the blow considerably”.

John L Sullivan


Head movement
I believe that Sullivan used head movement to avoid punched coming in a similar manner to Jack Dempsey and Floyd Patterson decades later.

“Sullivan showed one point of his science by quick movements of his head completely eluding on such occasions the heavy blows which were aimed by McDonald”

Denver Tribune Republican

A New Orleans quoted by Adam Pollack paper described Sullivan as:

“a man weighing 230 pounds who moved rapidly and was spryer on his feet than the majority of lightweights. Sullivan uses both hands well and hits clean. He dodged and guarded splendidly”.


Hand and foot speed
It is probable that Sullivan’s hand speed was on a par with that of Jack Dempsey and it might perhaps have been even better.

Joe Choynski once fought an exhibition with John L Sullivan. While Sullivan was touring Australia he was interviewed by an Australian journalist and questioned about how Sullivan might have fared against Peter Jackson and Joe Goddard. His answers give a possible insight into the hand speed of John L Sullivan. On Goddard he said:

“I don’t think he would have a ghost of a show with Sullivan. You see its this way. Sullivan is quicker than I am and he hits with terrible power. If I had a tenth of Sullivan’s force Id have beaten Goddard both times I fought him. Now its easy to figure out. I honestly think that John would smash him down with little trouble”.

If we take Choynski at his word that Sullivan had faster hands than him then it is quite instructive because we have footage of Choynski sparring with Jim Jeffries:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsB3O0JnBjI[/ame]

On the question of whether Sullivan could catch Peter Jackson Choynski said:

“You have never seen Sully fight Smiler. His right arm don’t do any swinging, it come across like a flash of lightning with a jerk, and if he misses he is so quick you can’t get your head out of range before he’s back ready for another shot at your jaw and how it does fly ping ping”.


Power
It is my contention that Sullivan’s power was up there with the hardest hitting fighters of comparable weight such as Jack Dempsey Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson.

“I never faced another man who could begin to hit as hard and I don’t believe that there is another man like him in the country”.

“One thing is for certain, any man Sullivan can hit he can whip”.

“He hit hard enough to break down any mans guard I know of”.

Paddy Ryan

“One thing is for certain and that is that neither Mace or Sayers ever encountered so hard or so quick a hitter as in John L Sullivan. It was this writers fortune to see the fight between Heenan and Morrissey and had Sullivan been on the boards that day it is my opinion that he could have whipped them both one after the other. Those who think that he is not a thoroughly scienced man are mistaken. He has a far better knowledge of the fistic art than either Heenan or Morrissey possessed. He is stronger than either and unquestionably he is the hardest hitter known to the records of the ring”.

National Police Gazette

“Probably no man has yet presented himself in the prize ring of America who could withstand the impact of Sullivan’s fist when it shoots out from the shoulder with the intent of doing harm”.

St Paul Daily Globe


Stylistic legacy
It is my belief that Sullivan was the first scientific offensive fighter of the gloved era and the evolutionary predecessor of Terry McGovern, Jack Dillon, Jack Dempsey and ultimately Mike Tyson.

“Sullivan’s method of sparring is beyond criticism. It is the basis of the modern school, and to its system of throwing the weight with the leads and follows is due the terrible execution with soft gloves that has become more or less common since Sullivan’s time”.

Denver Daily News

One fighter who was compared to Sullivan during his career was Terry McGovern. It is possible that it we could see film of Sullivan in his prime he would have looked something like this:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeQGaNDNi78[/ame]

 

Great work janitor. I mean that is an excellent gathering of resources regarding a man known mainly by name but not by anything else.

Prior to reading this I wouldn't have had sullivan in my top 15 of all time. Now i'm not so sure.

Is he greater than the likes of schmelling, wladimir and jeffries? Something i'm not sure we will ever be able to definitively say.

 

Sullivans principal career acheivment was to unify all the seperate title claims, both Queensbury and bareknuckle, to create a single world title. On that basis his historical importance could be ranked up there with darn near anyone. It is however verry hard to compare his career to those of the fighters you mentioned.

I think we have to credit him with greater historic standing than Schmeling, regardles of what would have happened if they had ever fought. The argument could certainly be made for putting him on a par with Jeffries. Wladmirs career is curiously similar to Sullivans in some ways. Like Sullivan he came allong in an era of fragmented title claims, and had the challenge of unifying them.