John L Sullivan?

Long before may vs PAC guys would try and dance around Sullivan who would tell them to come fight.

But he beats no atg fighters IMO.

 

When someone mentions John L. It always reminds me of all the old movies I have seen, the character of John L. appears in oh so many westerns, coming in to a saloon shouting, "in your presence now is the greatest pugilist in the werld' I will fight any man anytime bare knuckles and I say this because I am invincible" not verbatim but you get the idea. To me he is most fondly remembered because of his portrayal by that great and legendary actor Ward Bond in the Errol Flynn film, "Gentleman Jim" to this day unchallenged as my all time fave boxing movie, oh what an awesome film and what great fight scenes, Flynn insisted that the real boxers he hired and Ward Bond hit him for real at all times during the film with Errol insisting he could take the punishment all to make the scenes more realistic. This movie hard it all, comedy, tragedy, Alan Hale snr. and of course John L Sullivan, Bond brought great feeling to his portrayal of John L. and you really felt bad when Corbett (Flynn) wins the title from Sullivan, the way Bond portrayed the dejected fallen once mighty fighter was just heart wrenching.

As for Sullivan himself, yes it is hard to know how good he was, the Sullivan that first burst onto the scene was undoubtedly an awesome bare knuckle destroyer, where there were normally fights running from 35 to 80 rounds as the norm, young Sullivan was knocking guys out early sometimes in just the first few rounds, this seems new at the time though I am sure there had been some early KOs before it is just that here is a guy doing it regularly... but soon within a few short years Sullivan is struck numb by fame, he reveled in his reputation and fame and is by far the most boastful prizefighter the boxing world had yet seen, although Mayweather leaves him for dead now you could say that Floyd is a Sullivanite lol. The early days are under discussed generally but not by me and Senya, check out my thread on James Figg and you will see a lot of links and discussion, history is my passion, and boxing is a big part of that so at least from me thaere will be plenty more, the Figg's, Broughton's, Mendozas, Cribbs, Bendigo's, Dutch Sam's, heenans, Mace's Foley's and Sullivan's are fascinating, far more interesting than boxing currently is today.

The reason many here don't discuss this subject is that they have very little knowledge of the bare knuckle fighters, I am learning quite a lot about them now, I also love the 1890 to 1930's eras too, how the vast variety of early gloved styles slowly morphed into the styles of the 30's, 40's 50's and onwards is great reading, I am still a massive Darcy fan, still think he is one of the very greatest talents the sport ever saw and Young Griffo and Battling Nelson I revere as gods of the sport..... John L Sullivan MADE boxing ine the USA, he ensured that the USA would become the premier boxing nation (but not the be all and end all as a Klompton might insist).

 

He was also a great buddy of the great Young Griffo... they both loved to have long drinking sessions together.

 

As I said before the young version of Sullivan is a totally different kettle of fish as many today think of the older version and ignore his early greatness. Many describe him as a lumbering and slow bear like type with no footwork, speed just a lot of strength and "bottle". This is in no way correct in the earlier version, no back then he had skill, speed, footwork in spades, sure a different style to the later gloved fighters but this ISN'T gloved boxing, this is London prize ring Rules, it is a different sport altogther so to say he beats no atg's is ridiculous, I say that no atg's of the Queensbury rules from 1910 onwards stands a hope in hell of beat a prime Sullivan under London Prize Ring Rules.... none of them, not even Les Darcy stands a chance there.

 

He was arguably the first real star of the sporting world. I think he was the real deal ability-wise but naturally by today's standards probably a bit crude.
Contrary to popular belief, was not that keen on bare knuckle fighting and preferred gloves. Also not that capable a wrestler.

But certainly something of a phenom for his time.

 

Greg, When Errol Flynn was portraying Gentleman James J Corbett in the movies, it was Freddie Steele whose footwork is
scooting around the ring in the movie. Not Errol Flynn...

 

That I didn't know but much of the footage is indeed Errol and he did get hit hard, Errol was no slouch, growing up on the streets of Sydney just after the turn of the century was no cakewalk I can tell you, i know he was born in Tasmania but he left there as soon as he could, the Sydney of those days was a brutal place with terrifying gangs running most suburbs, this was before the razor gangs, then they carried knives and guns and every other conceivable weapon that could be hidden from police. He like virtually every other Australian lad learned to box. Sure he wouldn't have lasted long against the likes of a Freddie Steele but he had done some amateur boxing and he had to be tough... hell Sydney wasn't scary enough for him he went and spent some years in New Guinea and did some gun running, now only the hardiest of souls would venture there in those days of cannibals and head shrinkers and many tribes in full blown warfare against each other it's a wonder to me how he ever got to Hollywood alive.

Using Fredie Steele and other pro fighters was a smart thing to do, no wonder the fight scenes are so good

 

Rounds were not 3 minutes in the prize ring.

 

You are right, in fact they were never timed, a round may last 10 seconds or ten minutes or longer, a round ends when a fighter is knocked down or just decides to go down on one knee, then in both circumstances you had 30 seconds to get up and be ready to fight so they had half as much time between rounds.

 

Not quite mate, you are close but no cigar, if you said the AMERICAN sporting scene you are probably right but the first verifiable superstar of the sporting world was the amazing William Gilbert Grace aka W.G. Grace The Great Cricketer. Grace was the first big name in cricket but he was the first big star indeed the man was a superstar and he predates John L by at least 20 years. W.G. Grace was actually bigger than his sport during his time at the top, he was more famous than any living Englishman the only person with more worldwide fame from the empire was the Empress herself, Queen Victoria. In first class cricket he did the double of 1000 runs and 100 wickets 8 times, a feat never seen until him. he was a character too, once when an Australian bowler clean bowled Grace, WG refused to leave the wicket and told the bowler, " the crowd came to see me bat, not to see you bowl so I am staying at the crease". LOL. he was famouse wherever cricket was played and cricket was played in Philadelphiw and many parts of the USA and Canada, Australia NZ, India and everywhere where the sun never set ie the British isles.... the French were furious as he was even more famous than any twenty French sportsman of the day. Grace dominated cricket for nearly 4 decades..... not until the immortal Sir Donald Bradman of Australia came along was Grace knocked of the mantle of greatest player ever, The DON was a five times better player but thats another story.

 

My apologies. You are correct.

 

It's kind of like comparing a Cro-magnon man with a modern man. Boxing was a totally different sport then, and it proves little to place guys like Sullivan in fantasy fights.

 

INDEED !!!! :thumbsup

 

I don't know how he'd fare h2h because I've never watched him box.

Someone with his power would always have a shot though I'd imagine.

Literally can't comment beyond that.