John L Sullivan?

incidentally, do you have any reports of the sullivan jeffries sparring sessions?

 

I don’t know who would win a fight between prime Sullivan and Jeffries, but I am convinced that Sullivan was the better finisher of the two.

 

Boilermaker,

I disagree, in context you can take their comments seriously. Sullivan didn't say Jeffries was just a little better, but I think I could have beaten him.

He's clearly stating he'd get whacked. The date is 1907, pre Jack Johnson beating Burns, so there was no need to build Jeffries up when he said it.

I disagree a bit on the defense comment. Jeffries fought out of a crouch sometimes, and had a good slip and duck type of defense. This can be seen on film in a 3 second clip vs Sharkey taken from the movie the night they raided Minsky's when Sharkey charges in like a bull, and throws a huge left hook...Jeffries ducks it. You can also see it in Jeffries training video in 1901 for Ruhlin. Here he not only ducks blows but shows he can dodge the with head movement, and quickly counter

At any rate Sullivan himself says Jeffries was hard to hit. He was there. Why doubt him?

Sullivan was actually a decent cover for boxing. He was wise and said Jeffries could not come back, and covered his 1910 match with Johnson fairly saying he wasn't sure who would win.

As for Sullivan sparring, I do have Tom Sharkey's Fighters I met. I highly recommend it. What I have is in print. Essentially Sullivan sparred with Tom and had some nice things to say about him. Sharkey basked in the comments, and said his chest grew two sizes.

 

Well, power and finishing can be tied to class. Sullivan's competition was several notches below Jeffries and the time line he fought in featured even less defense.

As I said Sullivan's time must have been a puncher's paradise where men collided with little defense, and the man who hit hardest first usually won.

Sullivan fought a few named glove fighters with verifiable records.

They were Burke ( 170 pounds ) , Mitchell ( 150 pounds ) and Dominick McCaffrey ( 167.5 pounds ) Sullivan took Bruke and McCaffery the distance. He did not finish them. I'd bet the house Jeffries would have finished them.

Yes--Sullivan did KO'd Mitchell in three rounds, but Corbett did the same so the KO says Mithcell was a small man who could not take Corbett's punch.

I certainly think Sullivan was a puncher. In heavyweight boxing, punchers are almost always going to blow out novices, or non-defensive fighters. That has not changed in over 100 years, and Sullivan's early KO's can be found vs these types.

As a bareknuckle guy he took a long time to finish Mitchell and Kilrain. No explosive finishes here either.

 

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=...-20--21-byDA---sullivan+mccormick-all---1905#

"no man that ever saw me fight thought that he was in my class"
"i never invented any serpentine dances or Couchie Hoochie Crouches"
"ive met men who could make a ****** of jeff the best day he ever saw. Jake Kilrain, Charlie Mitchell and a dozen others..."
"Fitz, who didnt belong in the heavyweight division had done everybody up, which shows how shy the country was of the real thing."
"Those who remember the time when there was fighting that was fighting will not go daffy for the record of Jeffries"

In teh above article, Sullivan accuses Jeffries of ducking him by retirement when he could easily make good money for a title defence.

So, Sullivan has essentially put up two different perspectives to the same question, hasnt he?

 

This is commonly suggested on here, but it wasnt really accepted by many who saw both eras. Several people that Sullivans era had better fighters. I think Sullivan makes a fair point when he points to Bob Fitzsimmons cleaning the division when Fitzsimmons really wasnt a heavyweight. He certainly would not have as easy a time with Prime versions of Jackson, Sullivan, Corbett, Slavin, Kilrain, Dooley, Goddard etc as he did with the likes of Ruhlin and Sharkey, one would have thought.

 

I agree they were a weaker crop by a good margin. My point is a big puncher with gloves should have finished these two ( Burke and McCaffrey ) , yet Sullivan did not

The result is the same. Mitchell was 32 year olds for Corbett and active. How shot could he be? Sullivan likely faced a better Mitchell, but the Mitchell Sullivan beat had not been KO'd in over 10 years. I do not see signs of Mitchell being shot.

Janitor, McCormick retired in 1903 and was Ko'd 9 times in 30 fights. This means very little. Even John Finnegan Ko'd him. So Sullivan beat a journeyman in the gym with a losing record and a history of getting knocked out. Sullivan can be seen on film in 1910 hitting a bag. If you haven't seen it, don't.

Yes and no. Its easier to KO someone bare knuckle with a body shot.

 

It sounds like Sullivan wanted some money and was re-living his glory days. That is my interpretation. After all, fighters seeking a big match ( Sullivan would make $20-30K vs Jeffries ) always talk as if they were great and ready. They don't say I would have lost to him before a big fight. Never ever have I heard this.

Jeffries said he would fight on post Munore if there was a demand for it.

In 1905, no one wanted to see Jeffries vs Sullivan. It would go as long as Jeffries wanted. Out of curiosity how was Sullvian's financial situation in 1905?

What Sullivan said in 1907 ( when he was clearly out of the game and could not make money in prize fighting ) was much more specific. He says he would get smashed. And what he said when he sparred with Jeffries in 1900 " Jeffries is the fastest big man I ever saw in the ring " seems honest as well.

 

It is much easier to construct a case against a weak era, based on a previous era being stronger, than a later era. I can’t definitely say that Sullivan’s contenders were weaker than Jeffries, although I believe it to be the case. I can however construct a pretty watertight case for them being weaker than Jem Mace’s top contenders! Of course that makes it a blip, rather than a primitive era.

 

I just wonder whether we should wait until Pollacks Sullivan part 2 book comes out, before we write off Sullivan's era to these extents.

 

Why are we trying to compare these two, ? one is a glove fighter the other London prize Ring fighter.... very different codes of boxing.