John L Sullivan?

janitor View Post
It is much easier to construct a case against a weak era, based on a previous era being stronger, than a later era. I can’t definitely say that Sullivan’s contenders were weaker than Jeffries, although I believe it to be the case. I can however construct a pretty watertight case for them being weaker than Jem Mace’s top contenders! Of course that makes it a blip, rather than a primitive era.

The book will not likely show any new fights for Sullivan. I think its more about his post boxing life. Adam has a way of ending things before the champion is defeated.

Even some of Sullivan's biggest backers say Jeffries beat better. To compound the problem Sullivan did not meet the best in his time.

Peter Jackson or Frank Slavin were there for matches and either would rank as the Sullvian met pre-Corbett. Sullivan balked at both fights

Had Sullivan fought and defeated Joe Goddard or Joe Choynski, you can make an argument either man would be the best gloved fighter he defeated.

John L's resume of wins over top level gloved fighters is a thin.

The best Sullivan fought was Corbett, and Sullivan did not win a round or even have a big moment in a round that I am aware of.

Adam said it best. Boxing back then was very different. If this were football we would be comparing an old time team before the invention of the forward pass. What chance would the run only team have of defeating a team that both runs and passes? Very little.

This is why I think it best to put Sullivan as a pioneer time line, and draw the line once Corbett took the title with different sets of skills.

 

The knowledge that Adam has a new book on the way makes me wary of saying anything with conviction.

Based on the present evidence however, I am prepared to stand on my position.

 

I don't think the term suits Sullivan in the slightest, I think Foley, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Gans, Griffo and the other top guys from 1897 to 1918 are the pioneers of a new sport, gloved fighting whereas Sullivan is the end of the line for the bareknuckle game, you cannot compare the two types of boxing, they are vastly different, the LPR rules fighters could throw opponents to the ground or canvas they had a lot more leeway and far more types of attacks that would get a DQ in our MofQ rules. I don't think comparing him to jeffries logical.... he should be compared to the Mendoza's and the Cribbs and Heenans and Morrisey's and Dutch Sams etc

 

Here I disagree.

Sullivan was definitely the first gloved champion, as opposed to the last bareknuckle champion.

He specialised in gloved fights, had no desire to fight with bare knuckles, and only did so when he was forced to.

 

Sullivan preferred glove fighting with the 10 second KO. He did plenty of gloved fighting; however, the tendency of the time was still to fight London rules for 'championship' bouts. Also, vastly the preference of Sullivan's opponents.

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Aside from Slavin and Jackson, it is regrettable that Sullivan didn't meet Pat Killen.

 

I know he did have gloved fights but most were exhibitions, lets just say he bridges the gap, he and the Nonpariel. he represents the dying days of one and the dawn of another so yes a pioneer to an extent but he was far from the only one. Personally I think he was a great and devastating fighter and I get annoyed when people use his declining days to describe him as a fighter. Just look at the early photos of him, he was cut and well muscled and obviously very very strong, his right hand broke jaws more than once and the other common perception was that he had just a few fights, no he fought many many times in various sets of rules and at times would have a streetfight just to keep himself in condition, I read where he beat up a bully in one town he visited. Sadly there is so much about his career that is unconfirmed.

 

Jim Jeffries could probably have beaten all of Sullivan’s opponents with gloves, and Jem Mace could probably have beaten them with bare knuckles.

Could either of them have managed his hectic schedule though, and could they have achieved such mastery against both the best bareknuckle and gloved fighters?

I don’t think we can assume that they could have.