John Lester Johnson - Jack Dempsey put to rest

S ,thanks for your well appreciated support...Yes ESB has lost a load of well informed boxing buffs who I admired for their acumen and love of the history of boxing...They KNEW boxing lore from more than just Boxrec.
It galls me to read posts, less about a boxer of the past's true ability than
his social agenda...And yes S Jack Dempsey is THEIR whipping boy today..
Ali will be their target in the near future I fear...Cheers S:good:good:good

 

Greb, as a HW beat: Miske, Moha, G smith, Brennan, Meehan, J Smith, Renault, Weinert, H Smith. He was absolutely a deserving challenger who wanted the fight.

you might discredit Greb by thinking his accomplishments at the weight weren't good enough to merit a title shot, but I for one disagree.

My point is simple, Had Dempsey beaten Wills, Greb and Norfolk he'd have a better boxing legacy, do you agree?

 

I like Burts input. anybody else can go eat a dick honestly. keep posting Burt

 

Why do Dempsey apologists keep blabbering on about 'the Hollywood years', as if Wills wasn't pushing for the fight from 1919 onwards even putting forward an injunction for the Firpo fight which annoyed Dempsey so much he vowed 'Harry Wills will never fight for my title'

Given you vehemently dislike Ali to the extent you attack his character I find your fear highly questionable Burt

 

Hey PP,if I am as you so foolishly put it an "apologist " defending a great fighter who did YOU no wrong it is because the Dempsey haters are trying to revise history and shaft a great fighter to butress their social nobility NINETY years later... So freakin grand of you to destroy a decent man who has been dead lo these many years,and were he and his contemporaries
around now they would tell you yo take a hike...Dempsey in his little finger was more of a man than YOU or I for that matter, but I at least believe in fair play, and try to put myself in a fighters shoes taking into account the
circumstances and ERA in which they fought...So, so noble of you to constantly snipe at a man's reputation who cannot defend himself...At least I TRY, though it is no fun for a man of my age ,or any age who tries to defend the wronged reputation of a man who was beloved after boxing and was a helluva fighter....
Yes I who saw Ali,disliked his terrible cruelty calling one of my hero's along with Dempsey and Louis, JOE FRAZIER, such VILE, CRUEL names,and taunted his victims who were just trying to earn a living...Yes I didn't like his refusing to serve whilst someone else had to take his place in the service...I believe in the rule of law, or else ANARCHY reigns when anyone abides by the law THEY like...Having said that I never besmirch Ali's ring abilities or courage in the RING. NEVER...I can seperate the wheat from the chaff...Dempsey became champion in 1919 after many many tough years as a hobo, yes riding the the undercarriage of railcars looking for his next meal, fighting in saloons against older roughnecks, and by chance met a Jack Kearns who guided Dempsey to fame and fortune..After his ko of Jess Willard Dempsey was ENTITLED to make some dough and wasn't thinking of appeasing Power Puncher, 90 years later...And Dempsey beat whoever he fought as a champion and DID sign along with Harry Wills a contract for a bout for a Michigan promoter Floyd Fitszimmons which fell through because Fitszimmons couldn't get financial backing...This PP is a fact, whether you like it or not....So contrary to your Dempsey distortions and
clinical dislike, I feel that he and ALI were great fighters, and we should judge them what they did in the ring and their true abilities in the square circle...Sayonara ...

 

I was referring to the 'Hollywood years' spiel, an apologist is a defender of a position or individual, that doesn't necessarily make you on non-objective but yes it is your stance

And on the contrary Burt, the contemporary press crucified Dempsey for his opposition and demanded a Harry Wills fight

If I was Jack Dempsey I'd fight easy fights and make lots of money doing it too instead of fighting dangerous fights that could cause me serious damage and see the end to my million dollar paydays

I have no quarrel with the man's persona but I will state that he didn't fight the best and didn't prove himself the best. I'm not sure who's the best of this era, it maybe Dempsey or it maybe Harry Wills, we will never know, I feel Dempsey never did enough to make me think he wouldn't always struggle with a pure boxer like Tunney

 

Solid post.

 

If I AM WRONG, I will side with a [sorry to have to repeat]Sam Langford who fought Wills many times and after their signing [Dempsey/Wills]
EXCLAIMED " when they fight my money will be on Dempsey for he is the best heavyweight I ever saw ",unquote...And on the opinions of the likes of Mickey Walker, Gene tunney, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Ray Arcel, Hype Igoe, Damon Runyon etc, alongst everyone who saw the prime Manassa Mauler fight , against the biased, yes biased opinions of the likes of the ESB revisionists of today...No contest.
P.S. you say I am an "opologist" of Dempsey cause I defend his soiled reputation on ESB..I DO NOT apologise defending a man whose reputation is smeared by people 90 years later who base their opinions on their social agenda...Give me the opinions of the top fighters Dempsey beat over the likes of you 90 years later...And were Harry Wills living today, along with a John Lester Johnson, a George Godfrey ,all who never had an unkind word about Dempsey til the day they died...He was a great natural fighter who gave no quarter and asked for no quarter,beloved til the day he died, and
was a hero to millions, except for the likes of you and a few of your compatriots...And I don't apologise for defending him ever...:happy

 

Being sacrosanct and beyond criticism are the very foundations of anti-intellectualism...

 

mate, on this particular subject, you don't actually read the posts you reply to and instead you just spout loads of emotion filled dross.

The points PP made were pretty much twofold

1) in Jack's situation he'd take the easy money fights also.

2) it's impossible to definitively say who the better fighter was between wills and dempsey.

I can't see how you'd disagree with either point if you just read them.

 

I am a counterpuncher Seamus and I DID NOT START THIS FRAY...In all the years I have read about boxing THIS bunch of ESB distortionists who ATTACKED Dempsey INITIALLY,and I just responded to their biased attacks
on Dempsey...I don't pretend to be an intellectual Seamus in your lofty league, but I have been around the block a few times and contrary to you and those you defend I take more stock in those that saw Dempsey and Wills fight...Who the hell said I am "beyond criticism " ? But revisionists get short shrift from me...And yes I post with passion for I truly believe in
what I post ...And I take heed of what the boxing people of Dempsey's era thought about him ,a hell of a lot more than people [a few] who take delight in using Jack Dempsey as a whipping boy TODAY on ESB..:hi:

 

Don't worry, Burt. There will be another whipping boy coming along any minute. It happens when the same topics (usually heavyweights) are gone over and over ad nauseum, the same tired yarns dragged out and inflated with each retelling. It further happens when the faults of the same fighters, no matter how good they were, are not at least recognized. And, yes, we are all human and none of us are saints.

 

S, why the hell should there be ANY whipping boy in boxing ? These guys were brave beyond all of our posters...And all the years i have read about boxing and Dempsey,[since the early 1940s] I never have read the vitriol
attacking Jack Dempsey in any other fighter ever, since joining ESB,a few years ago...Was Demposey a Saint ? No. But he was a decent man who was beloved by all in boxing for the rest of his life...I know this because I was a witness to how well respected and beloved he was seeing him introduced at major boxing events at MSG..He befriended JH Johnson when Johnson was in a nursing home before his death, he helped pay for his
onetime sparring partner George Godfrey's funeral, he helped many destitute old fighters when he had his restaurant on Bwy, and he was called CHAMP till the day he died...Was he the greatest HW ? Who cares, but he was a decent tough hombre til the day he died, and he deserves
some damn respect...Good day...