Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Jul 18, 2014.


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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Following on from the thread discussing Jeannette's controversial victory over Georges Carpentier,I thought I would compare Jack Johnson's results against the opponents he has in common with Joe Jeannette.

    Tony Ross.
    Johnson won easy decision 1909

    Jeannette won dsq. 1912
    Jeannette drew 1901

    Battling Jim Johnson
    Johnson drew 10rds 1913 Johnson breaks his arm in the 3rd rd
    Jeannette won w6 1912
    Jeannette w10 1912 Jeannette knocked down in 1st rd
    Jeannette w10 1913
    Jeannette w dsq 1913
    Jeannette w10 1914
    Jeannette drew 10 1914
    Jeannette w 10 1914
    Jeannette drew 10 1914
    Jeannette L10 1915
    Jeannette fake no contest 1918

    Morris Harris
    Johnson w ko 1 1905 Johnson fought Harris and Black Bill

    the same day.

    Jeannette L6 1904
    Jeannette L6 1905
    Jeannette wtko 4 1907
    Jeannette w10 1908
    Jeannette drew 10 1910
    Jeannette w10 1910

    Sam McVey
    Johnson w20 1903 easy win
    Johnson w20 1903 easy win
    Johnson w ko 20 1904 easy win


    Jeannette L20 1909
    Jeannette w rtd 49 1909 Both men down multiple times
    Jeannette drew 30 1909
    Jeannette drew 12 1915


    Sam Langford

    Johnson w 15 1906 easy win for Jack, Langford down for 9 counts twice Johnson scales about 185lbs Langford 156


    Jeannette wtko 8 1905 Langford retires on stool end of r d 8.

    Jeannette L 15 1906
    Jeannette drew 12 1907
    Jeannette drew 12 1908 Langford 175lbs Jeannette 200
    Jeannette L6 1908 Langford 165lbs Jeanette floored 3 times
    Jeannette L15 1910 Langford 170lbs Jeannette 190
    Jeannette L12 1911 Jeannette floored in rd 1 easy win for Langford.

    Jeannette L 10 1911 Jeannette down 3 times Langford scaled 178lbs
    Jeannette drew 10 1913
    Jeannette drew 1914
    Jeannette w12 1915
    Jeannette L ko7 1916
    Jeannette L12 1917



    Tom Cowler
    Johnson w 15 1919 easy win,Johnson carried Cowler


    Jeannette w8 1919
    Jeannette w10 1919 easy win for Jeannette


    Sandy Ferguson
    Johnson w10 1903
    Johnson w6 1903 easy win for Johnson
    Johnson w20 1903
    Johnson no contest 1904
    Johnson w dsq 1905 easy win


    Jeannette w12 1908
    Jeannette w20 1909
    Jeannette L 12 1909
    Jeannette wtko8 1909 easy win


    Black Bill
    Johnson w6 1904
    Johnson wko4 1905
    Johnson w 3 1905
    Johnson w ko7 1906


    Jeannette Lko4 1906
    Jeannette drew 6 1905
    Jeannette wko5 1910
    Jeanette w ko3 1912
    Jeannette w dsq 6 1912
    Jeannette w 10 1912
    Jeannette w tko 9 1914


    Young Peter Jackson
    Johnson w 12 1905


    Jeannette w6 1907




    It seems ,when he was in shape Langford was Jeannette's master.

    McVey seems to have held his own with Jeannette.

    Jeannette also had mixed results against Jim Johnson.

    I think Jeannette might be a trifle overated,he was on the floor a hell of a lot and not just to Langford, he got up and was hard to stop but being down so much makes you wonder about the quality of his defence. Jeannette has 70 kos in 104 fights but apart form a great tko over McVey and a corner retirement win over Langford ,they are mostly stoppages over journeymen.
     
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
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  2. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    good point
     
    Bummy Davis, Jul 18, 2014
    Bummy Davis, Jul 18, 2014
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  3. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Against common opposition Jeanette's results are clearly inferior to Johnson's (would of been nice if there was a larger sample of Johnson vs Langford when Langford bulked up). At heavyweight not p4p obviously where do you rate Jeanette against his fellow black dynamite peers naturally placing them behind Johnson. (Jeanette, Mcvey, Langford) ?
     
    The Long Count, Jul 18, 2014
    The Long Count, Jul 18, 2014
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  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Underrated, not overrated.

    But not anything like as good as Johnson.

    Johnson avoided him in his prime though, so we can never say for certain.
     
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2014
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  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't believe this is true.Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice but the authorities vetoed it.Nothing in their contests suggested he had a live chance against Jack who dropped him multiple times in their fights.Why would Johnson avoid him?

    Looking at their respective results I think I put Jeannette below McVey ,and I'm certain he gets nowhere near a prime Langford.
     
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
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  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    In 1906 Langford was thrashed over 15rds by Johnson being dropped twice for long 9 counts and having his nose broken Langfrod was 156lbs Johnson 185lbs= 29lbs discrepancy.

    Langford fought Jeannette in1906 too, Jeannette was 26 years old and a month earlier against Johnson had scaled 185lbs assuming Langford was around 156 again thats the same discrepancy, but a totally opposite result.

    They drew in1907 we dont have the weights.
    In1908 they fought another draw Langford was 175lbs Jeannette 200lbs.

    Another fight that year saw Langford at165lbs beat Jeannette over 15 rds.
    We dont have Jeannette's weight but he had been 200lbs for their previous fight that year.

    1910 Saw a 170lbs Langford beat a 190lbs Jeannette.

    1911 they went at it again Langford won all but one rd and dropped Jeannette.

    Again that year a178lbs Langford beat Jeannette whose weight was not announced, but a month earlier he had scaled 195lbs for a fight.

    My long winded fact sheet is to demonstrate that whatever weight advantage Johnson enjoyed over Langford Jeannette did too , difference being Jeannette lost those fights convincingly.
     
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
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  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Joe Jeannette took up boxing late for the day, I think at age 25 with no amateur experience. His prime was around 1907-1915 . He should be judged here ( 1907-1915 ), not before or after.

    During this time, Jeannette has wins and draws vs. prime versions of Sam McVey, and Sam Langford, which is something Jack Johnson can not say.

    I think Jeanette's lone loss to Ferguson was a bad call, but I'll let those who know for sure comment on it.

    Jeannette seems to have done better vs Battling Jim Johnson in comparison to Jack Johnson as well. Tough as nails, and rather active, you could say that Jeannette matched up rather well vs big punchers, and larger men.

    I would however say that Langford was better than Jeannette.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 18, 2014
    Mendoza, Jul 18, 2014
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well he fought Jeannette early in his career and he was clearly one of the best contenders of his era. He may have signed to fight him, but never did fight him, and the arguments about his fighting him are just going to be about money again.

    I put Jennette above McVey. SO did McVey.
     
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2014
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  9. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Langford certaintly seemed to have Jeanette's number. I place Langford above Jeanette and Mcvey as well, the question now is Jeanette or Mcvey, who was better. I always just went with Jeanette but I admittedly am not well versed in this era and only judged by readily available (surface) information. Perhaps a closer look is needed to better gauge who was better of the two.
     
    The Long Count, Jul 18, 2014
    The Long Count, Jul 18, 2014
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  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    If you want to say Jeannette's prime is 1907 to 1915 then Langford is clearly superior.
    During that period they fought 10 times and Jeannette won just one, in 1915. Langford won the next 2 in1916 ko7rd and w12 in1917 There is no argument.
    My point is that Jeannette enjoyed as much of a weight advantage as Johnson did against Langford but he was beaten in those fights.
    Jeannette didn't face that many big punchers, those he did had him on the floor a lot.
    Langford & McVey both had him down multiple times as did Johnson.
    Carpentier had him on the floor.

    In the period you say Jeannette was prime Langford had him down7times in fights.

    McVey10 times and Langford like Carpentier was conceding lumps of weight to him.You delight in mentioning,[ about once a week] that Johnson was knocked down by 170lbs Choynski you never mention that Johnson was around the same weight .

    How about the fact that Jeannette was knocked down 7times by Langford who was conceding up to 30lbs in those fights ,or that Carpentier was 165 lbs when he put Jeannette down?


    Jeannette had 10 fights with Battling Jim Johnson.
    he won 6 he was knocked down in one of them, drew 2, lost 1 and one was a no contest.

    Johnson drew with Battling Jim over 10rds but he broke his arm in the 3rd rd.
    I cannot see how anyone can say Jeannette did better given the cicumstances of those fights?
     
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
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  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I always went with Jeannette over McVey, now I've changed my mind. I go.

    Johnson
    Langford
    McVey
    Jeannette
     
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
    #11
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    No they weren't about money in this instance they were about a black man defending his world's heavyweight title against another blackman. Therefore the status quo would remainthe same . As the reports which I posted emphatically demonstrate.

    Here's a couple from 1912 The excuse being "for the betterment of sport"
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...XIsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2MkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5985,2548254

    http://www.*****************/showthread.php?t=39038
    Source for McVey rating Jeannette above himself please ? Johnson rated McVey above Jeannette.
     
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
    mcvey, Jul 18, 2014
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  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But he did defend it against a blackman.

    Anyway, it's the usual, and as usual my position is the fight could have been made, didn't get made, should have been made, the champion bares the brunt.

    I've provided the source for McVey rating Jennette above himself before, and this year too. McVey was quoted as saying so by the La Vie au Grand Air.
     
    McGrain, Jul 19, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 19, 2014
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  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    My point was Jeannette in his prime fought the best when they were in their prime. Jack Johnson did not. As such one can fairly say that Jeannette was not as good as a prime Langford, but slightly better than a prime MCvey.

    We do not know how Jack Johnson would do vs prime versions of Langford, McVey, or Jeannette while he was champion.

    Jeannette going 6-2-1 ( 1 no contest ) vs Jim Battling Johnson is superior to Jack Johnson's 0-0-1

    PS: Regarding Choynski vs. Jack Johnson, you could fairly say that Choynski was past his best. Choynski's prime was in the 1890's. No one has the exact weights. What you can say is this Jeannete when down almost always beat the count. Johnson did not.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 19, 2014
    Mendoza, Jul 19, 2014
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  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    This is correct on all counts. Johnson did face a black man ( With a journeyman's record ) in a title shot, and the result was he escaped with a draw.

    Johnson could have fought anywhere in the world and had big time offers from known promoters to meet Langford, McVey and Jeannette.

    Jeannette words, " When Jack became champion he forgot about his old friends and drew the color line against his own people "

    Money was not the issue for not fighting the best out there, Johnson wanted easy title defenses against smaller men, way past their prime men or beaten commodities.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 19, 2014
    Mendoza, Jul 19, 2014
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