Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

Why do you insist on using macvey as his name over and over again?

 

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"the years 1909 & 1912 Jennette & Langford never fought...those 2 years Langford was running from Jennette..."

Gregory, Sam Langford was in Australia the entire year of 1912. He didn't return to the States until midway thru 1913. What the heck do you mean he was running from Jennette that year? The Australian promoter Hugh McIntosh tried to get Jennette to come over and fight Sam while he was in Australia but Jennette and his manager didn't want to go to Australia. Sam wasn't running away from Joe in 1912, he'd gone to Australia in late 1911 because that's where his greatest financial opportunities were at the time. But shortly before going to Australia he defeated Joe in a newspaper decision at Madison Square Garden on September 5, 1911. He then fought Joe in 1913 within four months of returning from Australia.

 

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The Bigfights collection aka ESPN did/does not have Johnson-Johnson. Indeed Ive never been able to confirm it was filmed.

I also take issue with Mendoza's insistence that Moran somehow beat Johnson in the footage we have and this is somehow a black mark on Johnson's fight with Moran. Less than 1/3 of the entire fight currently exists on film so any picture you get of the footage we have is likely skewed, made more so by your dogged determination to run Johnson down Mendoza. Furthermore, your repeated ascertions about Johnson fouling Moran are as ridiculous as when you said Johnson fouled Burns to drop him in the first round, something not supported by the actual film. If Johnson was hitting on the break or on in the clinches this would only be a foul at that time if expressly addressed in the articles of agreement. Irregardless, thats what referees are for. If Georges Carpentier (well known for his willingness to claim anything and everything as a foul including legal blows to the head) saw no foul then who are you to call him into question?

 

Clay, who do you think would win had Johnson given Langford, Jeanette, or McVey a fight in say 1909 - 1912?

This is how I see those fights playing out:

I see Langford as the best and most dangerous of the bunch but stylistically and physically I see him as the easiest proposition for Johnson. I feel Langford, in a fight with Johnson, would be smothered and his effectiveness would be reduced. I think Johnson would chew him up on the outside, tie him up on the inside, push, pull, lean, and work him over to tire him. I think Langford would be forced to look for a hail mary and I dont see it happening. Id be rooting for Langford but he would lose on points IMO. He should have gotten that shot but I dont see him winning it.

Sam McVey is the easiest of the three IMO. McVey was shorter and despite his herculean physique he was weaker. He like Langford would be forced to work his way inside. He wasnt as savvy a Langford though and so his success outside and inside would be limited. Johnson would tie him up and walk him around until the clinches were broken and then he would return to comfortably outpointing Mcvey. I think McVey's face would be an absolute mess after the fight was over he would probably lose a very wide decision.

Joe Jeanette, to me, physically and stylistically would have presented the most problems to Johnson. I dont see Johnson losing this fight either but how much success he had and by how far he won would depend on which fighter could fight "their fight." I could see Jeanette moving and jabbing and trying to make Johnson come to him. Its not a winning fight but if he used spoiling tactics like this he could make the fight more difficult and narrow Johnson's advantage. However, Johnson was an egomaniac and would be fighting from the position that he was THE champion and Jeanette would have to take the title from him. I could easily see Johnson standing back, inching forward, and basically drawing Jeanette in. When Jeanette attacked he could be wide open and that would give Johnson a lot of opportunities. Two things about Jeanette: He had a very wide stance (which is probably why he got dropped so much) and when he attacked he had a tendency to splay this stance out even more to get leverage on his punches. It left him vulnerable and made it much more difficult for him to get out of trouble after throwing his punches and against a sharp shooter like Johnson thats a bad situation. I think if Jeanette elected to fight Johnson and actually tried to get in there and take the title Johnson would bust him up good. Hed hit him with jabs on the way in to measure him and then when Jeanette was inside with that wide stance he'd be meat for Johnson's uppercut and hed have nowhere to go either. In short if Jeanette spoils he loses a decision in an unsatisfactory fight, possibly even winning some rounds. If he elects to fight he gets chewed up and loses a wide decision suffering a knockdown or two.

 

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I dont think Id even pick Jeanette in 1915 although Id have to think hard on it. in 1915 Jeanette drew with Sam McVey just weeks after McVey served as Johnson's sparring partner. I have some of that sparring on film and McVey is handled as easily as everybody else by Johnson. He also lost to Jim Johnson, who everyone bashing Jack keeps bringing up as a weak opponent... Johnson wasnt in the best shape against Willard and was aging but if you watch that fight closely he does some great work against Willard and despite his age and condition he was the one forcing the fight for the first 15 to 20 rounds against younger, bigger, and enormously strong opponent. At 36 Jeanette was no spring chicken and while he was still winning most of his fights his competition had pretty spotty records at that point barring guys like Langford and McVey, neither of whom were spring chickens. The main reason that Johnson's bout with Willard was for 45 rounds was to give the bigger, younger, fresher WHITE guy an advantage in a long fight. Johnson likely wouldnt have had to fight such a long fight against Jeanette in 1915. Over 15 or 20 rounds in 1915 I wouldnt give Johnson anything less than 50/50 odds and he should probably still be a favorite going in.

 

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