Johnson & Jeannette's Common Opponents

"Clay, who do you think would win had Johnson given Langford, Jeanette, or McVey a fight in say 1909 - 1912?

This is how I see those fights playing out:

I see Langford as the best and most dangerous of the bunch but stylistically and physically I see him as the easiest proposition for Johnson. I feel Langford, in a fight with Johnson, would be smothered and his effectiveness would be reduced. I think Johnson would chew him up on the outside, tie him up on the inside, push, pull, lean, and work him over to tire him. I think Langford would be forced to look for a hail mary and I dont see it happening. Id be rooting for Langford but he would lose on points IMO. He should have gotten that shot but I dont see him winning it."

I already offered me thoughts on this long ago in another thread. Bottom line, if the rematch had taken place, like you, I'd have been rooting for Langford to land a big shot and take him out, but I suspect that Johnson would have fought him just as you describe and quite likely win on points. I imagine Johnson would have fought him very conservatively and Sam would have had to spend the bulk of his time trying to bore in and land a big punch. I think I've said before that I believe he would have stood a punchers chance in a rematch.

I wouldn't agree that he'd easiest proposition of the three for Johnson though. I've always maintained that he matured physically after that initial contest with Johnson and I think he improved enough as a fighter that Johnson would have found him a much tougher proposition anytime from 1909-1913 if Sam was in shape. I remember that McVey has always argued that Johnson got bigger as well, but my viewpoint is that Sam's physical maturation since their one and only fight was the greater of the two and would have served to put him on more equal footing than the first time around.

I know that Jennette was quoted as saying that Sam would have taken him if Johnson had given him a second opportunity. He seems as qualified as anyone to offer an opinion on the matter but who knows whether or not he really believed that. I don't think there's any argument to be made that holds water against the fact that there was a period of time Langford was the most qualified contender and I know we agree he deserved the chance. The fact he didn't get it, leaves the matter open for debate and as I've said before is a stain on Johnson's legacy as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with your thought that McVey would be the easiest of the three for Johnson.

I believe Johnson would have defeated Jennette on points. The only kind of a match I could envision Joe winning would be one over a very long distance and Johnson would never have agreed to that.

 

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I do consider Gregory a friend. He is obviously very passionate when it comes to Jennette and I know we both believe that Langford and Joe were much more deserving opponents for Johnson than the likes he faced during his reign.

I have gone on record in the past as saying I would have had to favor Johnson in those prime for prime matchups, but that at least in Langford's case I thought he'd have a puncher chance of turning the trick anytime from 1909 - 1913 and there were certainly those who thought he'd have been able to do it at the time. It's a shame it didn't happen. On the flip side, I also wrote that Duke Mullins, the man who trained Johnson in Australia for his title fight against Burns, and later Langford while he was in Australia, later wrote in his memoirs that he actually thought Sam's best chance to defeat Johnson would have been in 1908 before he began putting on more weight and in Mullin's estimation slowed up some. So, maybe his best chance against Johnson would have been had the pair fought at the National Sporting Club right after Johnson won the title as originally planned.

 

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Would it be possible for you to list what the big fight collection has in a separate thread?

Regarding the foul when Johnson hit Moran on the break, it most certainly exists on film. In fact if you want to see it I can post it here. Moran, who later learned he was not paid by this fiasco momentarily thought of quitting. Fouls happen in boxing when the other guy is frustrated, needs a break, or is just plain dirty. Johnson has a history of hitting and holding, sometimes fouling on the break or going low.

As for the shown footage of Johnson vs Moran, I said its close. I did not declare a winner. I think you might have me mistaken with someone else.

Burns was not mentioned in this thread, just be careful as ESPN rounds shown are not always the correct round. For example what they show as the final round is more likely round 7. The best way to determine the round on older flims is to look for someone in the crowd holding up a number.

 

Clay and Klompton... Was his name really spelled Macvey like JJ is claiming?

 

Hey Captain spell check, I have never used the word " juimped " up.

The bottom line is the top three contenders while Johnson was champion were Langford, Jeannette, and McVey. Johnson skirted all three of them despite numerous offers. That is the truth, which you shall reject. Bigots don't learn, so I'll save the board some space and let others embarrass you further.

PS: Johnson has a few draws with journeyman too.

 

Johnson also beat all those guys and pretty easily at that. You act like he never faced them and then also ducked them as champions. If those men had beaten Johnson prior to him winning the title... they would have an argument and Johnson might never have even gotten a shot and they would've. Turns out, he licked them all and pretty easily, and thus separated himself as the top black contender. Once he won a title you act like it's some weird thing that he didn't give them a shot. We see this all the time in other major combat sports.. if you've already licked somebody once or even numerous times you don't want to fight them again. This is common place.

 

"Clay and Klompton... Was his name really spelled Macvey like JJ is claiming?"

Today is the first I've ever heard of this claim.

 

KuRuPT,

Here's how it went down. Johnson beat a 20 year old 156 pound Langford. Hardly the force Langford would later on become.

McVey was a teenager for two defeats, and but 20 for the of thrid and final match. McVey was very young, and did not have a lot of fights.

Jeannette took up the game late, had limited experience. His record when he meet Johnson was below .500, at .500 or slightly above 500. Jeannette was 0-3 when he first meet Johnson. Jeannette would greatly improve later.

A quick glance of the birthdays, listed weights, and ring records leading up to the matches will validate what I wrote. We never saw anything close to a prime match up between Johnson and the other big three.

 

You didn't address what I just said... This is COMMON PLACE in combat sports Mendoza... happens all the time... When you lick somebody once or twice or numerous times like in two cases here... you might not think it's needed to fight them again. I'm just curious if you grasp this concept at all, because you just avoided it totally in your response. Johnson is not some revisionist in his own time and would go.. yeah you know what I beat them when they weren't as good as they would later become. Many of the fights they had later can't even be counted.. why... because Johnson can't see the future... How would he know what they would do in 1910 or 1911 or 1915 in 1908 or 1909? You're looking at it from a revisionist point of view from Johnson's eyes when he was living through it. He can't see the future and how they will do years down the road. The fact is, he beat them and beat them easily. Most everbody agrees that even if he gave them a shot they would all lose... so since you want Johnson to be able to tell the future and sign matches for what they would become... why don't you want Johnson to also be like... yeah, I easily beat them just the same if I fought them like most here agree?

 

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