Johnson vs Ketchel - Restored

again not what I said, nothing silly about it...

People have MOVED precisely the SAME Way throughtout all of human history...

EARLY Film doesn't capture things right, we see that even in old movies or other old reels up to the 30s, we also see the Rare Old one that is a bit better in Quality or Operation of said tech, that shows better 'normal' movement/action...

by the 30s and certainly the 40s, we see some right Proper Normal Footage and Movement in all sectors of Human Social, Recreation and Leasurely Documentation...

So before the 30s, were people still knocking hell out of one another in the 1920s, 1850s or 1267 - OF COURSE they were, as well as Walking, Running, Eating and Screwing... just the same way as today.

the Point is, Early Film Footage 'rarely' displays such Proper movement!

Better 'Skilled', not necessarily, - BETTER Equiped, Skill and Appitude for long BUSY Active Prizefighting Careers.

 

This comment is ignorant in the extreme. Nobody ever said people didnt walk the same in 1909 as they did in 2022. However its indisputable that the sport has changed and progressed from 1909 to say the 1950s, and not by a small amount. To say that film simply couldnt capture the subtleties of movement back then as compared to the 1950s is completely wrong. Film was running between 15 and 18 frames PER SECOND. Thats the same speed home movies were shot at well into the 1970s and we can see a dramatic improvement in technique between films shot at 15 to 18 fps in the early part of the 20th and later in the 1940s and 50s. In short, those old films were catching everything the fastest fighters in the world were throwing. In 1909 as opposed to 1950 the sport was still relatively in its infancy. There were thousands of fighters across the USA in 1950 fighting each other nearly every single night in hundreds of boxing clubs and gyms under the eye of professional trainers etc. In 1909 the infrastructure of the sport was not yet in place for fighters to consistently fight tough well schooled fighters and polish their skills. Ketchel fought a ton of guys who wouldnt even be allowed to begin sparring in most gyms in 1950 because of their lack experience. The idea that those old fighters had the same technical development and skills as their later counterparts is simply not true.

 

No dispute there Klomp, but why is it that all that remains is jerky flash edit cuts of mostly parrying and grabbing...

I am suggesting that MOST of the Fast Movement, was 'burred, trailed and completely distored' and mostly cut, before Public showings, that is why MOST, not all, but most Early Old Footage rarely, if ever shows actual fighting.

 

And again, that is ridiculous. If, as you suggest, the footage of their more subtle movements was "blurred" and "trailed" (whatever that is actually supposed to mean) and/or cut there wouldnt be any continuity to the films when in fact these films have great continuity. The only thing, in modern times, that even comes close to what you are suggesting is the fact that in many cases in the early sound era i.e. 24 fps films that were originally shot at 15-18fps were transferred using sound equipment (24fps) making the resulting transfer run too fast. But has largely been corrected in most cases in modern times and nothing in terms of movement or technique has been lost. The fact of the matter is that in the early 20th century wrestling, clinching, pulling, mauling, and infighting were far more common than later. I can assure that if we have three minutes of a round of a fight from 1909 and most of that round is taken up by pushing and shoving in the clinches then pushing and shoving in the clinches was exactly what was going on. There wasnt some secret extra 3 minutes in that round that was taken up by furious fighting that somehow got "blurred" into clinches.

 

in a boxing match, Ketchel lasts the distance. In a street fights its over in under ten seconds

 

the Reels, Flicker in & out of what we would expect of normal movement, only (usually), leaving Parrying & Clinching...

something is wrong and/or missing.

You once to said too me, at the CBZ, in a Thread about Boxing developement and progression, with respect to most of the Eras before the 1920s/30s, where everybody more or less believed and suggested in a definite evolution & improvement in the Sport, you stated something to the effect, Paraphrased here, "they, (the Fighters), didn't just one day wake up in the 1930s and learnred how to fight!"

you can't have it both ways,

so IF they indeed Knew How to Fight before the 1930s, well once again "In these Early Old Film Reels, Something IS Missing!"

that's what I'm saying.

 

Then go ahead and time some of those complete rounds we have at 3min and tell me whats missing. Where would you jam into the three minutes all of this extra movement? What you are suggesting defies the laws of physics. And I never once suggested that the sport didnt evolve. Maybe you misunderstood the point I was trying to make but there is no denying that in the late 19th and first decade or so of the 20th centuries the sport simply didnt have the representation to develop the kind of talent we saw after its acceptance and popularity exploded post WW1.

 

Restored with the truth,No doubt about it now is there

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Good stuff. Basically a fixed fight. Pick an opponent with little to no chance of winning, dance around for 12 rounds throw in a fake knockdown, and then smash the guy in the face for the finish.

 

Im shocked he went out like that.He had pride thats for sure

“Now the night of the fight you might feel a slight sting. That’s pride ****ing with you. **** pride. It only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that **** because a year from now when you’re kicking it in the Caribbean, you’re gonna say Marsellus Wallace was right.”