Take the prime version of Johnson (the one that dismantled Jeffries in his comeback fight). But instead of going inactive let's say he has to face the following versions of each fighter in whatever order you want Langford (the one who knocked out Mcvey in 1912) Dempsey (the one who knocked out Willard) Frazier (the one who knocked out Ellis) Marciano (the one who knocked out Walcott) I'm just curious how people see peak for peak matchups going here. I'm currently pondering my HW rankings and discussion here can help make my mind up (for now atleast)
Most would say the best Johnson was NOT his bout with Jeffries. Johnson was probably past his physical prime at that time. Johnson at his best beats all of these fighters. Johnson totally dominated Langford when they did actually fight. No matter the circumstances Langford cannot do anything to greatly change a rematch. Johnson was used to fighting sluggers who wanted to take his head off. Marciano and Frazier would be controled in close and jabbed to death at distance for U decision wins for Johnson. Dempsey with his overall speed and two handed punching power has the best chance of the three to KO Johnson but I still favor Johnson by decision.
Yes but he fought a green MW in Langford so that victory is about as telling as when Flynn knocked out a pre prime Dempsey. What is telling is the way that Hart was able to take a decision with none stop agression. 3 of these 4 fight like that but with ko power so might be able to bully Johnson into a decision loss. Langford would have to counter him in close, that comes down to whoever has the quicker hands. But the tank that knocked out Mcvey, Wills and Gunboat in their prime was a formidable opponent for any HW due to his trap setting and ferocious power. Not to be dismissed is the size advantage Johnson has over them all. He will be able to out jab any of them from afar, his issue is whether he can better them up close. Last night I was convinced they'd beat him, now I'm not so sure tbh.
Johnson had one bad night vs Hart this is obvious to me. Also I honestly do not think under modern rules or even with the rules of the day but with a different referee that Hart would have won that bout. Johnson was doing all the landing and it was just the aggressiveness of Hart in general that won it for him. I am convinced that the best Johnson would be a very hard target for any puncher to be successful.
Langford had more fights than Johnson under his belt, how was he green? Langford was at 156lbs, 20lbs short of his best weight. Johnson at 185lbs was 23lbs short of what he said was his best condition,the 208lbs he weighed against Jeffries. Who got the better of Johnson up close? Clay Moyle,probably the foremost expert on Langford , picks Johnson to beat Langford prime for prime.
We both know Langford was pre prime, as was Johnson. Let's not even take the debate there. The second point that's the issue here. Would a more mature Langford, weighing in at say 180, be quick enough to catch Johnson off guard.
Agree completely with the first paragraph. The second paragraph I'm having more trouble with because of the lack of footage of him against a good aggressor.
I'm just pointing out that saying Langford was green ,though perfectly true ,should be accompanied by ,"and so was Johnson". Therefore , how does that change the result of a match when both are prime? Langford would still be giving up 28lbs and around 6inches in height. Short swarmers were demolished by Johnson.
Everyone came after Johnson trying to ko him aside from Obrien. He was completely used to being attacked and no one defended better than Johnson. Back in the 70s I would sit for hours watching Johnson and examining his techniques. One stands out in my mind. Against Flynn with Flynns head on Johnsons chest you see a left hook heading towards Johnson chin. Short punch and since they are in close quarters and Johnsons chin is completely exposed you say no way any fighter can stop that punch. Then out of nowhere with Flynns gloved fist literally inches away from landing you see Johndons glove catch the punch and bring Flynns arm back in between his own....I played those frames over and over. Bottom line is Johnson at his best beats all the swarmers IMO by controlling at distance and negating offense in close. The fighters who beat him would be those who could potentially control HIM at distance and had the boxing ability to avoid being koed.
Because sometimes fighters improve, they change their style and this allows them more opportunities to find success. What do we know about a HW matchup between a 200 pound Johnson and a 180 pound Langford? Nothing at all because it never happened. We can't just assume that because 30 pounds south one beat the other it would be the same again.
But surely you understand there is a huge difference between fighting Fireman Flynn and fighting Rocky Marciano.
The harassment he faced post Jeffries does see a weaker figure than 1910 or 1906 onwards. But anyway: Langford - he always beats Sam Dempsey - could go either way, Johnson has the skill and counter punching to give Dempsey fits. But this is a sloppyier Johnson who'd make more mistakes Marciano - Marciano breaks him down by this stage Frazier - Frazier is way too much pressure especially at this stage. Except for Johnson himself. Johnson's game dropped quickly post Jeffries after he was persecuted under The Man Act and ran out of the country.
PP, I'm assuming Johnson maintains his peak form rather than becoming lazy, sloppy and out of shape. I have long maintained that I feel even today Johnson passes the eye test. I'm just not comfortable picking him over great fighters when I can't see him face great fighters. His reflexes, accuracy and hand speed aren't in question. His jab and inside game are both excellent. He did sometimes lead with an uppercut with Naz got slated for, but he only did that when he knew he could land it. It's not so much his style that troubles me because I've no doubt he could adapt to a faster pace, it's whether he can take the constant pressure against a prime atg fighter.
One of the problems with judging Johnson is that when he was supposedly "physically prime" he faced a much lower calibre of heavyweight. His greatest victories occurred when he was about 190 or lower. That would be the most proven version.