Johnson vs the following in 1911 and 1912

Typical glove positioning when Johnson fought on the inside. Note that his opponents were free to punch but Johnson is controlling leverage. Try putting on 5 oz gloves and physically grasping a fighters bicep. You won't hold a fighter in that manner for long. The gloves do not provide the traction to do so. If you read the comments of the ref after Johnsons bout with Flynn where Flynn complained visibly to the ref that JJ was holding it tells the true story. First you read the ref stating in no uncertain terms that JJ was NOT holding. "Flynn was free to punch".

Secondly the papers tell of a conference prior to the bout where both participants heard and agreed to the bouts rules. The ref stated that there would be no holding or wrestling third, Johnson asked that if the bout were to be stopped by the police that he wants the fight given to the fighter who had the best of the going at the time of the stoppage. This was agreed to. There was no mention whatsoever that holding was allowed during this bout. Based upon Flynns reaction in the ring there was no way he would have agreed that holding was an acceptable tactic. You can SEE he was complaining to a point where he tried demonstrating on the ref what was going on.
Again the ref, a white man, stated after the bout that "Johnson was NOT holding. Flynn was free to punch"

There is great confusion on these boards regarding the defensive skill Johnson is exhibiting during his bouts. Johnson is generally NOT holding. John Ruiz held, Wlad held, Ali held. Ali's typical technique was to wrap his left arm around his opponents neck in close and hug as an example.

Johnson is using his arms and physical strength to eliminate his opponents leverage so yes they can punch with both hands to his body but those punches will have little power. Also YES they can punch but then leave themselves open for Johnsons powerful uppercuts.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/File:Flynn-Johnson.jpg

 

Frazier has far and away the best shot in my opinion .. twenty pounds bigger than Marciano, more over Langford, more vetted than Dempsey .. A Frazier - Johnson fight is a ref's fight .. if Jack cannot hold on for his life it would be brutal for him in my opinion ..

 

Both Rocky and Dempsey were greater fighters than Frazier and not in a minor way. Plus both men had two killer fists whereas Frazier only that hook. Of the three Johnson, the all time great boxer, would have the easiest time with Frazier as he would only have one punch to be concerned about.

Jack Johnson did not hold.

 

Sam was 20 when the fight happened and green to the division.

If anything this shows Johnson could not put him away!

Langford while Johnson was champion was much better and heavier.

Based on how. Johnson struggled with lesser men at champion, Langford take him.

 

Johnson might win just one here. I'd say 1-3. more of a chance for 0-4 than 2-2.

 

Langford had 60 fights when he met Johnson, he was floored twice for 9 counts and had his nose broken.
You don't think Johnson improved too?

Do you think he just trod water after 1906 ?
He put on23lbs of muscle for one thing, plus he had the confidence of being champion.
Which small swarmer beat Johnson?

I'll go with Clay Moyle's opinion.

 

OK. You believe what you want to.

 

Yep. Johnson could not even tame a mildly skilled Hart, who like Frazier had good effort, but lacked Frazier's one punch power.

If Johnson wasn't holding on, he's getting whacked.

The thing is Frazier wasn't very strong, so Johnson when he was holding could stalemate him. But in the middle of the ring, or when Frazier bobs and weaves his way in, he's in trouble with his bad defense.

 

Clay says Langford was just 20 years old when he meet Jack Johnson.

Langford was 156 pounds. Way too light.

Which small swarmer beat Johnson you ask. A past his best Hank Griffin around 180 pounds did the trick with in-fighting. Choysnki as a super middle sparked him in 3 rounds.

I would not call Langford at 185 small by the way. He had long arms and was rather compact with some impressive tale of the tape measurements for his time.

Johnson not being able to stop this 20-year-old is telling. A very green Jeanette stopped Langford just a few months before, and Sam lost his next fight via KO to Young Peter Jackson.:deal

Sam Langford improved greatly in weight and skill by 1908.

You'll go with\ I'll go with Clay Moyle's opinion. Johnson, according to Clay ducked him as the champion for years. Do you agree with him here as well?

 

Griffin was neither small nor a swarmer ,he was taller than Johnson!
Choynski was a boxer foremost and definitely not a swarmer.
Pollack says he and Johnson were about the same weight when they met.
Johnson seldom went for the ko, anyone who knows anything about him knows that .
Langford had beaten Jeannette just 21 days before he faced Johnson did that slip your mind ,or what passes for one?

 

Not a question of believing anything. Holding was illegal in Johnsons day as it is today. Johnsons tactic to beat the punchers of his day was to control them on the inside not hold them. Johnsons hand position allowed his opponents to punch. You can see Flynn do so with both hands while Johnson at the same time takes away his leverage. Also Johnson could sense better head shots from this position and then block them. He was also in perfect position if his opponents were to punch to counter with his own uppercut. I thought the way you do until I understood what "holding" means and what would have happened to Johnson in his era if indeed he was breaking the rules. Watching Johnson fight is key. If he held as did Wlad, Ali and Ruiz as a very hated black man in the early 20th century he would have been DQed left and right. Johnsons hand position is very different than any of these three. As per the ref of his bout with Flynn....."Johnson was not holding. Flynn was free to punch."

 

Clay says Langford was just 20 years old when he meet Jack Johnson.

Langford was 156 pounds. Way too light.

Which small swarmer beat Johnson you ask. A past his best Hank Griffin around 180 pounds did the trick with in-fighting. Choysnki as a super middle sparked him in 3 rounds.

I would not call Langford at 185 small by the way. He had long arms and was rather compact with some impressive tale of the tape measurements for his time.

Johnson not being able to stop this 20-year-old is telling. A very green Jeanette stopped Langford just a few months before, and Sam lost his next fight via KO to Young Peter Jackson.

Sam Langford improved greatly in weight and skill by 1908.

You'll go with\ I'll go with Clay Moyle's opinion. Johnson, according to Clay ducked him as the champion for years. Do you agree with him here as well?

You have trouble acknowledging points made.

Langford was young, green, and beaten just before and after facing Johnson via KO. Johnson did not play it safe vs Langford, he tried to stop him! But he could not.

I was talking about Griffin's weight, and he was an in-fighter, who defeated Johnson. Small can be defined in many ways.

Jeannette was very green when he beat Langford. What does that tell you?

Do you agree with Clay that Johnson avoided Langford as champion? Admitting facts instead of playing double standards would make you a better poster.

Adam does not have any weights of Johnson vs. Choysnki.

I just find it odd that Choysnki who could hit, easily KO'd Johnson.

Yet Choynski, could only floor Fitz once before getting stopped, couldn't floor Corbett ( *, at least, I never read he did in many rounds ), was meat and could not hurt Sharkey. In fact, he could not stop a glassy Maher or a tough Goddard.

This to me shows maybe Choysnki was a sharp puncher who could sting you with speed and accuracy, but he wasn't an explosive one punch type.

It also says that Johnson's chin maybe was not that good with the backdrop of the other name fighters Choynski meet.

Sam Langford could really hit. Better than Choynski in my mind.

 

Clinching was different, but Johnson hit and held at the same time, hit on breaks, fouled by going low, and did underhanded things such as pinching his opponents arms. These tactics worked on the smaller, or shot fighters.

None of these things were legal.

 

If you honestly believe Johnson would be able to get away with being a dirty fighter as a hated black man in the early 1900's you do not know American history.

Read the newspaper accounts of Johnsons bout with Jeffries. You will read articles written by Fitzsimmons, Burns, Rickard, Corbett, writers clearly and overtly prejudice and those that appear more progressive. Not a mention of Johnson fighting dirty. No mention of holding and hitting or excessive holding. The fight was deemed very clean even by those who expressed hatred towards Johnson.

 

Also ALL of these past great champions wrote what a marvelous fighter Johnson was as they watched him live and in person from ringside. Johnson was truely a unique and special talent. As per Fleischer..... Referring to the great black fighters from that time......McVey, Jeanette, Langford and Johnson....."Johnson stood head and shoulders above this dusky quartet"

Also to quote Fleischer......the rise of these great black fighters "was the real reason Jeffries retired".