Jones/Hopkins comparison very similiar to Charles/Moore...take a look

It's just that you made it sound like the victory was a matter of course, which it was not. Anyway, we're hijacking this thread a bit, so I'm out.

 

Sure, but how many of those heavyweights that that Fitz, Langford, Greb and Walker beat were over 220 pounds, not fat, and ranked in the top5?

Not taking anything away from what they accomplished, but the gap in weight certainly increased over the years.

I agree that the Tarver win was an excellent one, especially considering Hopkins' age. Still, i think we can both agree that despite Hopkins going up 2 weightclasses, he was hardly the smaller man against Tarver. Jones, on the other hand, gave up 30 pounds against Ruiz.

Well, it's not exactly a double standard. Here is why:

Jones came from heavyweight down to light heavyweight and lost 15-20 lbs of muscle. That combined with his age (35) took a lot out of him, and yes, that is hindsight.

Toney never fought over 168 when him and Jones squared off. Whatever weight problems he had, it was his own fault; it's not like he was bulked up at 180 before, he was fat. And let's be honest: he didn't exactly look spectacular when he lost to Griffin in the fight after, at 175.

Ofcourse it was a factor, but it wasn't as big as Jones' was. Usually when you're weight drained, it comes up from the middle rounds of the fight. For instance, LaMotta only started to fade from round 8 against Robinson in their final battle. Toney was dominated from the opening bell.


Maybe Hopkins ended Mercado's career, or maybe the man wasn't that good to begin with? Hopkins didn't end Tarver's career either, nor did Jones... despite Tarver being much older than Mercado, if i remember correct.

Who - like Toney and Hopkins?

(1) Steroids and weight training

(2) As i've adressed above, Jones was 35 and lost 15-20lbs of muscle, whereas Toney lost an unknown amount of fat/water while being 24 years old or something. Toney always has a shitload of excuses going for him (mostly from his fans, mind you), against Jones he was weight drained, against Rahman he was fat... you get the point. As i've said, Griffin beat him pretty decisively at 175 and he had many close fights against fighters that shouldn't have been in his league, but he lost or should've lost anyway. It was Toney's own fault and no one really knows the degree of which besides himself, while we know for a fact that Jones came down from heavyweight.

That is true, but on the flipside, his work during his prime was much more impressive than Hopkins'.

 

On point (2) I'm not in disagreement but I still feel that if it's an excuse for Jones then it has to be an excuse for Toney. Toney made a decision not to train properly and Jones made a decision to bulk up and then lose the weight. It's essentially both their own faults...

 

Jones was also 35

 

Well, it wasn't just the weight. I think we can both agree that Jones has never looked the same ever since he got down from heavyweight? Age was a big factor as well.

Toney, on the other hand, did not suffer a huge downward spiral during his career after the Jones fight.

 

But Toney rarely looked the same after the Nunn fight either. Was Jones a more focused figther? Yes. Was age a factor? Yes. But we're still talking excuses in terms of the weight. The other thing that sticks with me ae the manner of the defeats. Not just the KOs but the almost emotional response.

It's a close call... Closer than I first thought but I still believe Hopkins edges it.

 

They also didn´t weigh 193 pounds when they were in the ring And I´m sure the likes of Corbett, Wills, MecVey, Jeanette, Uzcudun, Levinsky were all fat and not ranked at all. Just to name a few.

Well, that´s right but Jones was also younger and didn´t come of two losses.

Well, Toney was known to blow up between fights and it is as hard to come down from 190-200 pounds at it is to go doen from 193 to 175 - especially when you consider that Jones very likely weighed in more than 175 on fight night.
That Toney did not look good in his next fight actually diminishes Roy´s win more than it helps it.
I agree that Jones would always beat Toney but it would certainly look not as easy. Weight drain was a big facter imo in that fight.

Tarver went pro very late so his career is moved a bit north in terms of age, isn´t it? When you look what Mercado did before Hopkins and after and than look at Hopkins record and see that quite a few fighter weren´t the same after facing him you can make the fair assumption that Hopkins ruined him.

I made a list once in the general board in a similar thread. It were about 10 fighters but mostly DM.

And steroids are not cheating?

 

I would like to know why no one else picked up on this. A ten round decision? The fight was set for 12 rounds being as it was a title bout. And BH stopped him in the 11th.

A guy gets decked twice in the other guy's national capital and they call it a draw? He not only didn't get knocked out, he won that fight.

 

Well, Ring and Boxing News didn't think he won it. :good

 

You can make jokes about it, but fact is that none of them were big, 220lbs in-shape heavyweights and ranked in the top5 simultaneously. The only exception is Harry Wills, and this is Langford's career best effort probably.

In fact, many of the lightheavyweights that Jones (and Tarver for Hopkins) weighed over 185lbs on fight night, so Jones certainly is no stranger to beating what are classically called heavyweights.

Well, Toney always has the excuse of either being weight drained or fat, for all of his fights.

Given that he wasn't in the shape he should've been 90% of the time, wouldn't it be safe to say that Jones dominates him 90% of the time? Sure you can speculate on "But if...", however Toney has proven time and time again that he doesn't give a flying **** about being in shape. Even after that career ending hammering he received from Peter.

I disagree. Mercado already had two losses to (sub) journeymen fighters before facing Hopkins, which was his first big step up. He went 0-1-1 (arguably 1-1) against him, but most of the fighters that beat him afterwards before he became inactive simply were good fighters, unlike the ones he had faced before fighting Hopkins. I'd say it's a matter of him a decent but not top fighter who lost more as he stepped up in competition.

If he was beating top boxers until he ran into Hopkins and then went on to lose to similarly rated guys, then you might have an argument, but he didn't.

Sure, but for most of those fights there was a good reason they didn't happen. Benn was ruined after the McClellan fight, which is pretty much when Jones stepped up to 168. Eubank, too, wasn't as good anymore and losing to the likes of Collins by 1995. DM wanted more money than he could really stand for, etc. Now i would've liked to see Jones take on Michalzcewski with a money split that wasn't totally fair on his part, but for legacy's sake. But in the end, it wasn't unreasonable. As was Hopkins making unrealistic financial demands on rematch, which at that time, was seen as a no-brainer in terms of who'd win.

There are a few fights that he should've made, but all-in-all, he faced pretty good opposition and he took care of all the mandatories they threw at him with relative ease.

Bottomline is that the two best fighters above 154 of his era, Toney and Hopkins, he both faced and one he dominated, the other he defeated rather easily. There was never much talk about a Toney rematch since it was such a landslide victory, and Hopkins priced himself out of a rematch and was content to stay at 160. Those are facts.

They sure are. But let's be realistic here, many fighters may have used but weren't caught. Jones wasn't caught during the Ruiz fight (or any other, outside of the Hall fight), does that mean he was clean during the Ruiz fight? How trustable does that make the steroid tests? Holyfield never failed a test in the 90's, either.

 

Right they weren´t but my point was that the size difference was often as big as between Jones and Ruiz. That was not a joke.

Yeah, very sad imo and bad for boxing. A guy like him should not make as much money as he does.

Well, that´s hindsight. At the time he was higher though of as Hopkins. And you have to consider that Hopkins was not seen as much better than his other opponents. In fact, Hopkins didn´t fight much better opposition, if he even did, with the exception of Jones.

Sorry but like I always write about this: Jones made so many money in his career, he didn´t really need any more. He should have made those fights happen and fullfill his destiny. He didn´t and I knock him for that. He stopped facing the best opposition available once he was above 168. Hopkins on the other hand ... you get it I think.

No, those are not the facts. You just ignore that hopkins was not at his best against Jones while Roy was very near at his. You also ignore that a 50/50 split was "pricing himself " out after the Trinidad fight, especially with all the money Jones already made. The fight did not get made not because of money but because of ego and pride.

Well, fact is he got caught the others did not. We now he cheated, we don´t know if others did. That should hurt him, just like it should hurt Toney, Holy and even Vitali.

 

Jones was never proven conclusively of taking steroids, Hall and Jones had positive A Sample results, both had negative B Sample results. No test results were released, just an uninformed paper pusher who made claims.

Neither Jones or Hall tested positive at any other time in their careers.