Jones, Toney, Hopkins, Calzaghe - ATG list

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Stinky gloves, Jun 18, 2007.


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  1. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm as serious as a heart attack.
     
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    #106
  2. HoldMyBeer

    HoldMyBeer Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    that's pretty serious - give me a few years and i'll let you know how serious that is ;)

    in the meantime...

    you do realise calzaghe, despite being a legit champion, never allowed himself equal footing on the world stage and never beat a proven world class fighter in his prime, don't you?

    there's a real stigma attached to euro fighters who stay in the background to avoid big matchups, but calzaghe is the only legit champion i can think of who consciously did this.
     
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    #107
  3. keith

    keith ESB OG Full Member

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    Well he beat the number one guy on your list. So middleweight, check.

    Super Middle - Toney Check.

    Lt heavy Unfiied the titles whooped the guy that beat Dm who wouldn't fight him so check.

    10 years as pound for pound best fighter in the world. Check.

    Oh yeah and won a version of the heavywieght title.

    Check.

    Again, that list is ridiculous. Hopkins would NEVER even have been a champ if Jones didn't leave the division.

    Keith
     
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    #108
  4. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Would have, could have, should have.

    The facts remains, Jones' run at light heavy is a total sham and his #1 P4P ranking was based more on flash than accomplishment during a good portion of that reign.

    And I do believe Jones has subsequently hurt his legacy, unlike say, Holyfield who remained competitive at the top level despite suffering numerous losses towards the end.

    Jones' career was a carefully orchestrated charade, and the fact that he never fought Michalczewski hurts his legacy.

    In a recent series of surveys I've conducted, Hopkins was one of two active fighters to finish in the top ten on an all-time list.

    Hopkins ranked as the #5 middleweight of all time, whereas, Jones rated outside the top ten in his keynote division.

    Jones may have been a greater talent than Hopkins at one point, but Hopkins longevity against the elit give him a clear edge over Roy in terms of legacy.

    Feel free to disagree with me--most people do.

    But in my eyes, Jones is one of the most overrated fighters to ever lace up the gloves. And he was a SENSATIONAL physical specimen in is prime, so it's ashame he never dared to be great.
     
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    #109
  5. HoldMyBeer

    HoldMyBeer Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    regardless of what you think - jones ruled his division on the world stage.
    calzaghe didn't. he shouted from wales.
    now i don't know if you're british but so far it smacks of british sentiment ;)

    prove me wrong one way or the other.
     
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    #110
  6. keith

    keith ESB OG Full Member

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    yeah beating 18 champions and winning titles in 4 weight classes is a crappy legacy.

    Again the only reason Hopkins had ANY title run at all is because Jones left the division to fight a guy who was BETTER than any middlewight at the time.

    Most people would laud a fighter moving up a weight class for a tougher challenge. Yet Jones gets knocked for it.

    You've been hanging out int he classic forum too much it seems. As anyone who fought in the last 25 years gets NO love there.


    Keith
     
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    #111
  7. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    On the "world stage"? Despite never beating the man who had already unified 3 out of 4 belts?

    Interesting choice of word, "world stage".

    :lol:
     
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    #112
  8. keith

    keith ESB OG Full Member

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    And dropped two of them to avoid fighting the likes of David telesco and William Guthrie.

    And then turning down multiple offers from Jones camp with excuses like "We don't take offers from faxes".

    I can't believe how far off you are on this one......

    Wait, have you been hanging out with Farmboxer?:D



    Keith
     
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    #113
  9. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Not true, and I would like to believe my surveys prove it.

    Two active fighters finished top ten all time in the original 8 weight classes (with two to go).

    Hopkins finished as the #5 middleweight of all-time (which was exactly where I had him on my list).

    Pacquiao was #9 on the featherweight list (which I disagree with because Pacquiao had just four fights in the weight class--I think some people were infected with "Pac Man Fever" given that survey was held around the time Pacquiao defeated Cotto).

    If memory serves, Jones finished #11 on the all-time light heavy survey (which I found to be overly generous, considering the rich history of this celebrated weight class).

    Are you saying you would put Jones in your top 10 all time for light heavy?

    Do you disagree that Hopkins belongs in the top 5 all time fr middle?

    More imprtantly, let's take this one point:

    Do you think Jones' legacy suffers that he never fought Michalczewski?
     
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    #114
  10. HoldMyBeer

    HoldMyBeer Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    don't start using emotes as a defence - that's always the beginning of the end of objectivity. just be honest.

    like i've said several times before, someone isn't necessarily 'the man' because he has a belt.
    both hopkins and jones had notoriety, and because they fought on the biggest stage of all that meant they were always targets for other top fighters.

    'world stage' isn't a term, it's a truth depending on the fighter and how realistic it was for any other top fighter to legitimately challenge him.

    when people talk about fighters 'ducking' others, you'll always notice it's the highest profile fighter who apparently does the 'ducking'...

    there's nothing wrong with being british if you can back up your point of view by the way. i'm only challenging it.
     
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    #115
  11. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    You are assuming I blame Jones and Jones alone for that fight not happening. Not so.

    I place blame on both fighters EQUALLY.

    However, I maintain that both of their legacies suffer since they never squared off as they damn well should have!

    It is simply inexplicable that these two never fought. They both ought to be embarrassed.
     
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    #116
  12. lolb

    lolb Active Member Full Member

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    1. Jones
    2. Hopkins
    3. Toney (could have been above Hopkins if the Ruiz win had counted)


    4. Calzaghe (I'm a big fan but his resume doesn't back up his ability)
     
    lolb, Feb 20, 2010
    lolb, Feb 20, 2010
    #117
  13. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Jul 19, 2004
    I'm not British!

    :rofl:rofl:rofl
     
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    Rumsfeld, Feb 20, 2010
    #118
  14. keith

    keith ESB OG Full Member

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    Well 7 out of the 40 repsondents agree with you........


    Keith
     
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    keith, Feb 20, 2010
    #119
  15. HoldMyBeer

    HoldMyBeer Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    it doesn't matter if you are or not.
    but i hear judgements for jones but no defence for calzaghe being above him still...
     
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    HoldMyBeer, Feb 20, 2010
    #120
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