Jones v Hagler @ MW

Why should I throw out Leonard vs Hagler?

You're seriously comparing that fight to Leonard vs Camacho?




What don't you understand, about Roy having had a fractured hand against Hopkins, and him being apprehensive about it, along with it being his first big fight after four years of frustration?

Roy wasn't that fast, or that strong?

Yeah, sure.


It doesn't matter if Hagler was the better overall MW. This is a head to head match up.

The version of Roy who fought Tate, which was just 5 months before he fought Toney, would have been an absolute nightmare for Hagler.

 

lufcrazy,

Of course mate, but that's not the point is it?

We're specifically looking at when Roy was at his best at MW, for the sake of this thread.

Yes, the Hopkins win was the best win that Roy ever had at the weight. Just like how (IMHO) Foreman was Ali's best ever win. But if I'm putting Ali into a fantasy fight with the likes of Wlad and Lennox, there's no way I'm using the Foreman version of him. I'm going to use the version of him which I think was him at his absolute best.

What you're doing, is you're looking at Roy's best win/opponent at MW, instead of specifically looking at when Roy was at his best at MW.

For the sake of this thread, it's irrelevant that Hopkins was better than Tate.

Again, Roy had a fractured hand against Hopkins, and Alton Merkerson pleaded with him to postpone the fight. But he wouldn't because he'd waited four years for the opportunity. Roy's father had hid title shot opportunities from him, and he was having him fight nobodies (no disrespect intended) for peanuts. Roy's openly admitted that he was apprehensive against Hopkins.

Now again, look at when he fought Tate. He was absolutely buzzing. He'd beaten Hopkins for the belt, he'd knocked out Malinga, and he had his sights set on a mega fight with Toney. Against Tate, he was injury free and ultra confident. So he was both physically and mentally at 100%, and he looked sensational.

I respect your opinion, but I can't be any clearer than I've been. Even though Hopkins was his best win on paper at MW, it seems silly to me to put that version of him into a fantasy fight against the likes of Marvin.

For the sake of the thread, we don't want to be speculating on what may have happened between Marvin and an apprehensive version of Roy who had an injured right hand. We want to speculate what may have happened if they'd have fought each other whilst they were both at their best.

As most people know already, I'm a huge fan of Roy's. So trust me when I tell you that Roy never looked as good at MW, as what he did when he fought Tate. If you have the time, go and watch the fight.


:good

 

What do you think would have happened mate, if Ray had fought Marvin at MW, when they were both at their best?

:good

 

But you're assuming that Roy would have been right there for the onslaught. But with Roy possessing great speed, skills, reflexes and power, along with his size, who's to say he wouldn't have been able to have eluded that onslaught?

I respect your opinion, but you've got to look from Roy's perspective too. Roy possessed the type of attributes that would have given Marvin fits. A SMW on fight night, that possessed speed and skills that were similar to Leonard's, with one punch knockout power too? That's a bad mix for any MW in the history of boxing. Nobody would have had an easy time with Roy, not even SRR and Monzon etc.

 

I agree.

I don't buy the theory that Marvin was completely finished and he'd easily have beaten Ray had they fought earlier. I think Ray's movement would always have caused Marvin serious issues.

 

He could never pin Ray down to seriously hurt him and stop him. Would things have been different in 81/82? Not in my opinion.

 

He couldn't do anything with Leonard in 87. And Ray was also faded and making his debut at MW.

That fight tells me that Marvin would always have been troubled by Ray and Roy's movement. Always.

 

:good

You've got to choose that version of Roy if you're putting him in a fantasy fight at MW.

 

For displays of a superhuman combination of speed, timing and composure against good, trying but somewhat overmatched opponents, I nominate the following: Ali v Cleveland Williams, Hamed v Belcastro, Eubank v Denys Cronin, and Jones Jr v Tate. That doesn't mean he'd beat the technically superior and intangiably better Hagler, though.

 

Marvin who fought Ray in '87 was very, very slow though. He had slowed down more than Ray had, strangely.
But that is neither here nor there as far as this thread goes...

The thing is, one doesn't just 'hunt down' Jones. Were it so easy...
Fighters who moved in on him usually got a nasty left hook for their troubles. Jones used to bait fighters into moving in on him by backing into the ropes, and then countering them inside.
Extremely diffilcult guy to fight...

 

Why couldn't he? A Mexican brawler did just that for ten rounds without taking any serious punishment. Took at least three rounds off of Hagler in that time as well.

And Jones is more than capable of hurting Hagler. He can hurt anyone at that weight.

And @ this:

Old Poxy can't even avoid contradicting & making an a*se out of himself in the same f*cking thread. atsch

 

Great points.

:good

 

To be fair, if you're going to base this on when Jones was his best, then you have to throw out the Leonard fight in your ****ysis because Hagler was nowhere near his best by that time.

I agree Jones would win, but you need to ****yze this based on a 1979-1983 Hagler. That is when Marvin was at his best.

 

Jones that fought Tate, may be the best Jones you get. He had put it all together at that point, mentally and physically.