Jones v Hagler @ MW

Let's just assume that Roy could healthily have made 160 with a same day weigh in.

What do you think would have happened?

 

Firstly that was a bad mistake on my part. I meant to type PROBABLY not possibly, due to the fact that I firmly believe Leonard had a better chin than Jones, and would take more punishment before he finally crumbled.

I have PRIME Hagler stopping Jones in 5 - 6, and Leonard 10 - 12.

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I don't follow that at all. That is like saying Duran was at his best for the Leonard 1 fight, when everyone knows he was a better Lightweight than he was a Welter. It doesn't make sense.

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I'm sorry mate, but honestly, your posts aren't clear to me at all. I think I've misunderstood just about all of them.

I know you'd pick Marvin at MW, but I thought that was specifically because you assumed that Roy would have been drained at the weight?

Or have I got that wrong?

Are you saying that you'd pick Marvin at MW, under ANY circumstances, just because you think he was a better fighter at the weight?


Just to clear things up once and for all, I'll give you two scenario's, and you give me the outcomes, if you don't mind:


Scenario 1.

Both guys weighed in at 160 on the same day, and both of them were healthy, and no one was drained.

What would have happened?


Scenario 2.

We used a time machine, and we went and got Roy from the Thomas Tate fight, who weighed in as a SMW on fight night. Meanwhile, Marvin weighed in at just under the MW limit on the same day. So when they were opposite each other in the ring, Roy had a weight advantage of around 10 pounds.

What would have happened?


Thanks.

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I really don't know why you are making such a huge deal with this Loudon, you are talking about Hagler as though he weighed in at 158 - 160, and by late the same night was only a couple of pounds heavier. There is plenty of stuff on the net that says Hagler was 168 - 170 by fight time, so where do you get Jones would be 10 lbs heavier, when you insist that as a Light Heavy he was only ever 182 - 184 by fight time?

For the proportion of Haglers build after a mid day weigh in, a good meal and a couple of litres of the right fluids, and he would easily put weight on, to get back to his favourite sparring weight, which was 168 - 170. That was when Hagler was at his most comfortable both in training and sparring. He only had to " hit " 160 or less for the weigh in.

 

Okay mate, fair enough.

I don't agree, but I respect your opinion.


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We've discussed this before. I just think there were subtle differences. If I ever put him into a fantasy fight that's above MW, I always choose the version of him that fought briefly at SMW. I think his absolute peak was 94/95. He seemed a tad quicker than at LHW, he seemed to throw more punches, he didn't back himself onto the ropes as much, and he fought more frequently and didn't have any hand injuries. I think he was at the top of his game. I think most fans of his will agree that his peak was at SMW.

 

Foxy 01,

I didn't mean to make a bit deal out of it, I was just looking for some clarification from lufcrazy that's all.

Regarding Marvin's weight gain, honestly, that's news to me.

He was a small MW who was solid. And at his peak, he sometimes weighed in a full 2-3 pounds under the limit. I've heard that he was always in shape all year round, and he didn't have to really dehydrate himself to make the weigh ins, which the numbers indicate. And back in the days of the same day weigh ins, they weighed in either in the morning or the afternoon before the fight.

So if he came in at 2-3 pounds under the limit without struggling, how on earth did he rehydrate to 168-170 pounds? That sounds crazy mate. I've honestly never heard of that.

Where have you got that from?

I know that lots of fighters back in the days of same day weigh ins, only gained a few pounds afterwards. I once read that Michael Spinks only gained a few pounds after, and Bob Foster too. Bob said that even if he had a month out of the gym, he'd walk around only about 4 pounds heavier.

When Marvin came in at 157, if he'd have weighed between 168-170 on fight night, that would have been a gain of 11-13 pounds.

A weigh in of 158 pounds, would have been a gain of 10-12 pounds.

A weigh in of 159 pounds, would have been a gain of 9-11 pounds.

A weigh in of 160 pounds, would have been a gain of 8-10 pounds.

It makes no sense to me mate.

I know you're older than me though, and you'd have seen him back in the day. So do you remember someone noting that he weighed between 168-170 on fight night? Or have you read it somewhere?

I've never heard of this. I don't think Marvin could have gained that much weight after the weigh in. Also, just by looking at him, he didn't look to be in the region of 170 pounds.

Could you show me some articles etc from the internet that mentions anything? This is fascinating to me.


I hope you have a good weekend mate, nice debating with you.


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I can't say for sure, but it's unlikely that Marvin ever came into the ring at 168 after making 160 earlier that day. Typical weight gain for same day was 3 -5 lbs.

You don't have to be a genius to know that, all else being equal, you can regain a lot more weight when you have 35 hours (and a night's sleep) than 11 hours.

I saw one fool make 143 (in a different combat sport) and then eat a massive breakfast and have a couple of litres of gatorade. An hour after weigh-in he weighed 152.

Five hours later, less than a minute into his bout, he threw up.

And rumors aboud as to Duran's second bout with Leonard. He had serious trouble making weight and tried to gain back a bit between weigh-in and the fight.

Didn't work out too well for him.

 

I'd be astounded if Marvin weighed between 168-170 fight night.

And he obviously didn't struggle and was dehydrated, if he came in between 2-3 pounds under the limit.

It seems bizarre to me, that he'd have gained between 11-13 pounds.

Like you say, fighters can do that today, because they have 30 plus hours between the weigh in and the fight. Not forgetting of course that most guys dehydrate themselves and scr*pe in either bang on the limit, or just under. Different circumstances altogether.

I've always held the opinion that Marvin would only have gained a few pounds after the weigh in, as many other fighters did back in the day.

Regarding the guy who threw up, that doesn't surprise me at all.


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Most top fighters in this era actually don't seem at all dehydrated to me during weigh-ins. Which makes sense since most experts and trainers recognize the harms of dehydration. I asked about this before but I'm not convinced that most modern elite fighters really dehydrate themselves much more than guys did 35-40 years ago.