Jorneymen who defeated the most world champions/beltholders

In what way did I denigrate Johnson? The guy didn't start bixing until he was in his 20's, worked construction all while being a journeyman that fought as the B side against multiple contenders until he got he broke out in 2004. Like I said, he beat multiple world champions and made the most of his career dispute being undersized and have next to zero amateur pedigree.

With that said, there is a huge difference between Johnson and Moore. It feels like you only post on this forum to argue and make **** up.

 

Johnny Risko

With a record of 67-46-6 (plus about 20 no-decisions), he beat Jack Sharkey, Max Baer, Tommy Loughran, Mickey Walker, Paul Berlanbach, Jack Delaney and Bob Olin

 

Moore also had characteristics of a journeyman at certain points of his career, but verall wasn't, just like Johnson.

Would you call Johnson a journeyman to his face? I sure wouldn't.

 

I don't consider Johnson a journeyman either TBH.

He went 32-0 before losing to a prime Hopkins.

He moved up to Super Middleweight after and had a few losses and then seemed to find his true calling at Light Heavyweight.

Johnson beat Tarver, RJJ, Harding, Woods, Hall, Griffin, and won multiple world title fights.

And was still very competitive vs the likes of Froch, Dawson, being in his 40s.

Yes he carried on too long and added alot of losses to his record giving him the appearance of a journeyman record.

But the fact he went undefeated in his first 32 fights and was a top 5 ranked Light Heavyweight for 7 years winning multiple world title fights even being lineal champion at one point.

That for me isn't the definition of a journeyman fighter.

 

Yeah, there are lots of former champions who worked side jobs while also boxing at some point.

 

Angel Manfredy has a surprising amount (he never won a major world title). More of a contender than a journeyman though

Julio Diaz
Juan Polo Perez
Arturo Gatti
Calvin Grove
Jorge Paez
Kenny Mitchell

Ralph Tiger Jones from the 1950s has like 5 world champions and multiple contenders

 

He certainly became a very good fighter but he really was a journeyman starting out. I remember when he fought Hopkins the first time and was undefeated. He really hadn't beaten anyone of note at that point and was a better fighter when he was losing close hard fought fights as a B side opponent later on. Sorry, but an undefeated record doesn't mean much too me. He was NOT a top prospect and cut his teeth from 97' to 2003 when he was sub .500 fighter. In those years and the very definition of a journeyman and I don't regard that as a bad thing, as those hard fights made him into a contender and eventually a champion.

Take a close look at Johnson's record and BHOP's when they met. They had just about the same amount of fights but the difference is, BHOP had fought Roy, John David Jackson and Mercado twice while Glen really didn't fight anyone of note. BHOP grinded his way through the Blue Horizon and through multiple contenders while Glen was still learning his craft. Glen's sub .500 record from 97' to 2003' was far more impressive than his undefeated start to his career. He learned how to fight in those close losses and become a very good fighter and one that I have a tremendous amount of respect for. Being a journeyman is not a knock.

 

Johnson was lineal champion he was ranked as a top 5 Light Heavyweight for 7 years that's not the definition of a journeyman for me.

A journeyman for me is someone who loses a majority of their fights takes fights on short notice and is a gatekeeper for upcoming prospects.

I don't think people are realising the criteria of what a journeyman actually is.

Emanuel Augustus, Darnell Boone, Sanderline Williams, for example are the definition of good journeyman fighters.

 

He was a journeyman fighter with zero promotional support that grinded his way to a world title. You said made is sound like his 32-0 record ment more than it actually did.

Sometimes the losses mean more than the wins in building a fighter. My definition of a journeyman is exactly who he was from 97' to 2003'. He took short money as the B side and was brought in to to test the A side guys. In the process of that, he became a very good fighter that ultimately won a world title and was the ring fighter of the year.

 

Right after reading your post again I understand what you're saying but.....

I think with what Johnson achieved in his career I think he shouldn't be classed as a journeyman.

For me a good journeyman is someone not ranked in the top 10 in their weightclass for pretty much most of their career who lose a majority of their fights. They can be tough opponents but are often used as to springboard the careers of upcoming prospects not to mention constantly taking fights on short notice.

Johnson for a few years may of had the mentality of being a "opponent" kind of like James Tillis did after losing his undefeated record.

But I think with what Johnson did ultimately achieve in his career he has too much credentials to be classed a journeyman IMO.

 

We are going in circles here. Too me, a journeyman is exactly who he started as. He was brought in to test the A side guys and through that process, he became a very good fighter. Most world champions are built in the amateurs , highly touted and brought along slowly by promoters, that was not Johnson. Again, I'm not talking about how he ended his career. I'm talking about the process of becoming what he became.

 

He definitely was built differently than other world champions in his era. He had very little fanfare until he beat Jones. For year's he was a construction worker brought in to test guys and unlike Tarver. Jones, Griffin, Woods he had very little promotional support. I can't think of another guy from the last 20 years or so that became a lineal champ with his background. He didn't start fighting until he was 20. Now Rocky Marciano started late as well but the difference was, he was a winning fighter from the start. Johnson had years of grinding.

 

He wasn't the lineal LHW champion, he was The Ring LHW champion. Zsolt Erdei was the lineal champion at the time. One of the rare instances when the lineal and Ring titles were seperate. He was considered the best in the division tho.

 

Just to think: if Marvin Hagler, Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns hadn’t ducked him, Pat Lawlor would have been one of the Sensational Six (along with Wilfred, who would get included by virtue of having fought all but Hagler) and we’d be talking about them rather than the Four Kings.

 

Roger Podacter