Jose Manuel Urtain - Highlights

Threw him in with tough fights? His toughest fight was a well past it Cooper who had been urged to retire before that bout and he dominated and stopped Urtain.

Now we are comparing Urtain to Foreman? Laughable.

As for your definition of a clubfighter you are arguing semantics. The bottom line is you think those guys were legitimate contenders and I dont. When they stepped up they failed more often than not or got hometown decisions which made their records look better than they were.

Put those same guys (and no Im not referring to all Europeans) in the mix at the felt forum or MSG, or Boston, or Philly, or LA and you will get a lot more losses than wins.

Id be curious to know which fights of those guys you actually saw to base your opinion on?

 

No one's comparing him to Foreman regarding levels. You're right to certain extent regarding Urtain and other European heavyweights of the time.
Being Champions of a continent or a country would probably get them a little more recognition than some of the lower rated American heavies,which probably was a bit unfair.
The truth is some probably weren't much above club level others were good to decent.
For instance regarding Cooper who lost just about every time he stepped up a level, club fighters don't floor Ali and have wins against a prime Folley on their resumes.

 

I never called Cooper a clubfighter. That being said the Cooper who fought Urtain was FAR removed from the Cooper who floored a pre championship Ali and got stopped in the following round. Or the one who was knocked out with one punch by Johannsen. Or the one who was knocked out brutally by Patterson. Or the Cooper who was stopped by Folley in two. Or even the Cooper who won a debatable hometown decision against Folley.

 

No I am not. You insult Europe by dismissing all their Euro Champions as not being able to reach or get out of the first level of pro boxing that all who ever enter boxing actually reach anyway.

That goes for a whole host of built up white "Irish Americans" from Boston too. It doesn’t make them bad fighters just because they got the build up. Usually the funding comes with the Amateur pedigree. Take Duane Bobick, he never made the grade as an elite contender in the pro ranks but it doesn’t mean he was only ever a club fighter. He was an international boxer in the Olympics and a real contender as a pro.

If you matched any protected prospect who has been the house fighter his whole career with a more experienced tough opponent who came to fight he would struggle and be exposed to some extent.
The European title is a competitive circuit what ever way you look at it. If you matched European champions (who in the 1970s still had 15 round fights) with another world rated fighter from America he would not be disgraced and would have an even chance of winning. 9 times out of 10 the Euro guy is not beating the world champion or the elite contenders ....but neither are 50% of the Ring top ten.

I have seen a lot of the ron standers, terry daniels, henry clarks, chuck wepners, Jose king romans, randy neumanns, boone kirkmans, al blue lewis's scott ledoux and all the rated American contenders of that era. They would be 50-50 fights and fair opponents for who ever was the euro champ.

 

Jose Urtain 'flattens' Jack Bodell

Jack Bodell defeats Joe Bugner

Later in his career, Jose Urtain said he would show Joe Bugner how to beat Jack Bodell.

EGADZ...............Batman

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CHok you're talking to a chump who thinks Eubank was a complete fighter.Might as well give up.

 

ahhh, the penny has dropped!

Forgive them, they know not what they do...

 

The opponents of Foreman, Lyle, Shavers, and Foster were well above the cannon fodder fed to Urtain.

 

Jose Manuel Urtain,

Would always pull in 18,000+ at the 'Palacio de Deportes' in Madrid.

Jose did say, 'What do I need America for, I can make 'cinco' times more 'dinero' here
in Spain, than some 'second rate' arena in the States'.

'They asked me to come to the States to fight Chuck Wepner on some undercard in
New Jersey for $6000. I can make $65,000 (U.S. Dollars) per fight here in Spain.'

 

were they? foreman got a title shot after beating a guy who was 4-15!
Lyle got a SD gift decision a year before getting a title shot to wendal newton who only won 18 of 33 fights.
Shavers got knocked the **** out by Ron Stander who went the distance with Jack O’Halloran who Bodell knocked out.
The same Bodell lasted 2 rounds against Urtain!!

 

You're telling me something I already know. If you read my post I said Cooper lost almost every time he stepped up. Who's lauding Cooper? Because I certainly wasn't.

 

October 1970

Smokin Joe Frazier vs Jose Manuel Urtain

World Heavyweight Championship

'Palacio de Desportes' - Madrid, Spain

In a 'wild brawl in Spain', Jose Manuel Urtain scores a 'stunning' 5th Round Knockout
over Champion 'Smokin Joe' Frazier last night in front of 20,000 Spaniards at the
'Palacio de Desportes'.

'Smokin Joe' Frazier opened up in his usual fashion, by swinging for the fences with his
wide left hooks. After stunning the smaller Spaniard in the 1st Round, the Champion then
floored Urtain 'twice' in the Round.

In Round 2, 'Smokin Joe' was all over Jose Urtain, and rocked him several times, before
flooring Jose a 'third time' with another left hook. Jose survived the Round, by using his
strength to grab the 209 lb. Champion around his thick waist.

In Round 3, 'Smokin Joe' again pressed the attack, but started to slow down a bit.
This gave Joe Urtain an opening, as the Spaniard started to fight back in the later part of the Round,
by scoring with his short powerful left hooks.

In Round 4, 'Ring Magazine's Round of the Year', Jose Urtain started off by winging
left and right hooks at the 'charging' Champion, and stunned Frazier with a right hook,
driving him back into the ropes. There, the Spaniard unloaded with a barrage of punches as the
20,000 Spanish fans went 'ballistic'. After absorbing '23-straight blows', Frazier went down to one-knee,
and took an 8-Count from Referee Arthur Mercante.

Stunned, Frazier tried to box and move, by flicking out left jabs to keep the 'chargring
bull' off of him. Jose Urtaiin then trapped the Champion along the ropes, where he dropped in a left-right-left,
that floored the Champion a 'second time'. Joe Frazier got up after a '4-count', and was visibly shaken.

With 40-seconds left in the Round, Jose Urtain tried to 'finish-off' the Champion, by
winging left hooks at Frazier's head. But the Champion withstood the assault, and spun
Jose Urtain into the ropes, by grabbing the Spaniard by the shoulders and tossing him backwards.

With 10-seconds left in the 4th Round, Joe Frazier swung with a desperation left hook that found the
point of Jose Urtain's chin, and dropped the Challenger in a heap.
The Spaniard struggled to get up at the 8-Count, and made it to his feet as the bell ended Round 4.

Round 5. 'Smokin Joe' Frazier, hoping to end matters, rushes from his corner and tries to land 'the finisher'.
After pinning Jose Urtain up against the ropes, Joe starts landing several left hooks inside, hurting the Spaniard.

As Urtain is in trouble, Joe starts going with left-right combinations to the head at a non-stop pace.
But the Champion is burning up alot of energy, as Urtain weathers the storm.

By the 2:00 Mark, 'Smokin Joe' is 'smoked out. Sensing the Champion is 'gassed' Jose Urtain starts throwing 'bombs',
and lands some 'wicked' left hooks on Frazier, who starts to wilt.

With 'Smokin Joe' reeling, Jose Urtain lands a left hook-right uppercut on the 'button', and Joe Frazier goes down
at the 2:48 Mark. Joe Frazier struggles to beat the count, but cannot rise before Referee Arthur Mercante reachs
'10'.

Jose Manuel Urtain is 'crowned' as the new 'World Heavyweight Champion.

 

To put Urtain into perspective, here he is being beaten up by an ,on the slide ,36 years old Henry Cooper, having his next to last fight.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN44d0Rjbto[/ame]

 

Jose Manuel Urtain,

Losing to 'ancient 'Enry' Cooper,,,,,,,,

Pretty pathetic,

At that time, a call for the 'Under-Under' Division.

Under 6 feet tall, and under 200 lbs.

Jose Manuel Urtain was 5' 10" and 198 lbs.

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Cooper was a very capable heavyweight contender in his second to last fight. He was a very experienced veteran and worthy of his ranking. That Cooper beats half of the top ten that year. He schooled Joe Bugner but did not get the decision in his last fight and Bugner had already KOd wepner and beat much of george Foreman's early opponents with simular results.