Joseph Obey Joyce vs. Zhāng Zhìlěi & Denzel Bentley vs. Kieran Smith RBR.

You know what Joyces intent and plan was for sure do you?
Wow it is good to hear from someone within the camp of Joe Joyce with access to these things.

Well Joyce did not look like he was moving much, other than with the aid of Zhangs fist moving him backwards.

We can all see and interpret with our boxing brains what we saw, but neither you or i know definitively that the weight loss to that degree was intentional or what the plan was.

At end of day Zhang won decisively and Joyce took his loss with no excuses, that is the sort of boxing i like.

I guess we will have to see what weight Joyce fights at next, if i was a betting man i would say not as light as he was for this fight.

 

Carl Frampton said that this was Joyce's strategy and that he heard it from Joyce's team, so it is really good to hear from someone within the camp of Joe Joyce who does have access to this information.

 

Well i heard similar from Frampton but "Hearing behind the scenes i think we were hearing stuff like Joe...." were the words Frampton used, perhaps Frampton did actually hear facts from a member of the camp, but likewise i put that sort of statement in line with "an anonymous source reported" as used in so many breaking news stories.

If indeed the leak from a camp source is fact, then Joyce needs to get that camp member off his payroll in double quick time, and publicise the leakers name, telling any outside source of a fighters strategy prefight is bad news for any fighter.

 

1. "an anonymous source reported" doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong and it is far lower stakes for a reporter to include it in a newspaper than for someone not in media to make a statement about "behind the scenes"
2. This situation is different from an "anonymous source" in that Carl is a boxer on the scene who can reasonably have behind the scene knowledge (he was interviewed for godsake so the presumption is that he has a relevant opinion).
3. Carl is a long time friend of Joe and it's perfectly reasonable to ask about strategy, ESPECIALLY because Joe walked in 20 pounds lighter than his previous fight (not to mention that the quoted strategy was pretty consistent with Joe's pattern and corner advice in the fight).
4. I'm still not seeing how going up 20 pounds helps him against Zhang here. He looked slow in comparison to Zhang and adding 20 pounds would have made him even slower. Also would not have helped at all with his eye closing up.
5. I just think it's really disrespectful to assume that Joe's weight loss was unintentional, because it means that he wasn't serious about the fight. How else would a man lose over 20 pounds in 1/2 a year since his last fight?
5. Joe does have a history of weight fluctuations for specific opponents. He was 271 against Wallisch and dropped down to 258 against Dubois like 3-4 months after and he himself said that he dropped weight to move against Dubois.

At the end of the day, Joe said that he had a great camp, was taking this fight seriously, and I believe he lost to the better man on the day. I'm really sad for him and the money that I lost, but I believe he can make a few adjustments and come back stronger.

 

I never said anonymous sources were wrong, but if you believe that a fighter would be ok allowing their strategy to be told to outsiders of the camp, then you have your opinion and i have mine.

Frampton of course can have an opinion, and as a former professional world title holder his opinion is more informed than mine, however it remains an opinion, and if you look at prefight interviews of him discussing the Joyce/Zhang bout, his opinion was that Joyce would win, so his opinion was proved wrong, whereas lots of less informed folk were of opinion that Zhang would win, and their opinion was proved correct.

I certainly have never ever shown Joyce disrespect, i merely asked "do folk actually think such a weight loss was intentional,?", it not beyond the realms of possibility a heavyweight who does not have to make weight might not be a regular user of the weighing scales, certainly one who is having a good camp, preferring to judge training on how they feel not by numbers on a machine.

I concur on your final point that Joyce lost to the better man on the day, a view i have held since the loss, and yes agree Joyce can make adjustments and return better.

 

1. As I said, you don't know when Frampton got his info, or from who. It could have been after the fight, it could have been from Joyce himself. Either way, there is a world of difference between someone on the inside (he was even on the panel at the face off) who is a personal friend knowing information, and having an opinion on the outcome of the fight.
2. It's not that big of a leak. If a fighter comes in 20 pounds lighter conventional wisdom is that they're there to move. If Joyce came in at 280, for instance, it would be fairly obvious what his plan is as well. Not to mention, Joe doesn't have a particularly wide variety of styles; most fights are extremely similar and that's what we know and love. All of Joe's personal interviews and interviews with his sparring partners/trainers have gone along the line that Zhang is dangerous early, but Joyce should either get him on points or on a late stoppage after Zhang gasses (this was the overwhelming narrative as well).
3. Following up, from a non-casual perspective, the real strategies aren't "oh is he going to be moving or coming forward" (which are more or less obvious). The real things that are protected are specifics, such as punch selection, targets, movement choice, defensive positioning/habits, etc. For instance, against Dubois, Joyce went for the long jab tucked his head behind his shoulder, as opposed to the high guard, but even this specific is a really really general oversimplification of what Joyce was doing.
4. It's 20 pounds not 2. And it's usually easier to gain weight than cut. Joyce went through a long camp and it's really ridiculous to think that he lost 20 pounds on accident (or that he or his team were not intelligent about it). And it's not just "a heavyweight," it is Joe Joyce, interim champion of the WBO, who was following a religious diet and training program. And the last time that Joyce cut, he did so against a puncher Dubois; he himself said that his strategy against Dubois was to not get hit by Dubois's punches. His weight mirrored that strategy.
5. I'm still not seeing how coming in heavier would have helped. To me, the weight and the general strategy was good, but he lost out in the specific execution (which is consistent with my earlier statement that specific strategy is key).

Joyce even said:
"I've been disciplined in my diet and doing great training. Had an early camp and a pre-camp before Christmas. I'm feeling comfortable, and we'll see on fight night."
Upon being asked: "Was that a tactical reason? To come in as light as you have?"
"It'll be easier to move around without the added weight... so yea...potentially...yea"

 

Rewatching the fight. Im just at the end of round 5. The minute rest before the 6th is the first time I’m seeing endswell applied. Unless I missed it if that is the first time talk about dropping the ball. Damn.

 

Rewatched the fight Had it 48-47 Zhang live giving Joyce round 3 and 5. Upon review I have the fight scored 49-46 Giving round 3 to Zhang this time. The fight was not very entertaining the second time around and I really found myself just underwhelmed by Joyce, horrible defense, strategy and punch technique

I watched it the second time around with my dad whose been watching boxing since the late 60's early 70's and had never seen either Zhang or Joyce or had any knowledge of them heading in. He was not impressed really by either man and was shocked to see Joyce had such a high KO rate with the arm punches he was throwing.

I will say Joyce was coming on more in the fight and it was tough to tell if Zhang was gassing or just understood the situation and was biding his time. He really stopped fighting the back half of round 5 and let Joyce come out strong to start round 6. Zhang did have one strong offensive burst prior to the ref stopping it. I think if Joyce's eye held up he wins the fight down the stretch in a close one because I think Zhang was going to gas out. However, I wont call this a fluke given it was Zhang's power and accuracy combined with Joyce's disregard for defense that caused it. I would like to see a rematch of this fight at some point if politics allow

 

You have your opinion, i have my opinion and Frampton had his opinion, the common theme here is opinion.
We both agree the best man won on the night, no ifs, buts or maybes, whatever strategy re weight, fight plan and anything else Joyce and his camp decided upon, it was proven to be unsuccessful.

Joyce can fight on and still be a name in the division.