Joseph William Calzaghe vs. Santos Saúl Álvarez Barragán

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Jan 24, 2023.

The Welsh Dragon or Canelo?

  1. Calzaghe on points

    83.3%
  2. Calzaghe by stoppage

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Draw

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Álvarez on points

    8.3%
  5. Álvarez by stoppage

    8.3%
  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    The generally accepted super middleweight GOAT vs. the generally accepted current number one in the division.

    In light of all this chatter about where the Mexican fits into All Time Great rankings, let's first resolve if he first off has carved an equivalent legacy to and secondly if a case is to be made for him triumphing head to head over the reigning historical king of 168lbs.

    Their respective ledgers at SMW:

    • JCC Jr.
    • Rocky Fielding
    • Callum Smith
    • Avni Yıldırım
    • Billy Joe Saunders
    • Caleb Plant
    • Gennady Golovkin

    vs.

    • Paul Hanlon
    • Paul Mason
    • Spencer Alton
    • Martin Rosamond
    • Darren Littlewood
    • Karl Barwise
    • Mark Lee Dawson
    • Tyrone Jackson
    • Stephen Wilson
    • Anthony Brooks
    • Mark Delaney
    • Tyler Hughes
    • Chris Eubank, Sr.
    • Branko Sobot
    • Juan Carlos Giménez
    • Robin Reid
    • Rick Thornberry
    • David Starie
    • Omar Sheika
    • Richie Woodhall
    • Mario Veit x2
    • Will McIntyre
    • Charles Brewer
    • Miguel Jiménez
    • Tocker Pudwill
    • Byron Mitchell
    • Mger Mkrtchyan
    • Kabary Salem
    • Evans Ashira
    • Jeff Lacy
    • Sakio Bika
    • Peter Manfredo, Jr.
    • Mikkel Kessler

    Now, obviously that's a tremendous difference in quantity in Calzaghe's favor - 32 bouts versus 7 - but admittedly with a low concentration of quality throughout most of it, maybe half a dozen, or 18%, of those being victories to write home about. Most would probably agree their greatest respective victories at the weight are their last (in Álvarez's case, latest to date) - that is, Kessler and Golovkin. Some might argue that Golovkin is the overall better scalp than Kessler - but is that more in a prime for prime sense comparing GGG at middle with the Viking Warrior at super middle, or do really mean those specific version of them, on those nights?

    Is there anything in Álvarez's style that would bother Calzaghe? Would his relentlessly aggressive counter-baiting and body punching accomplish what 32 other individual couldn't (46 men if you include Calzaghe's forays into light heavy) or would Joe's awkwardness do its usual dastardly work and disrupt the more conventional boxing of the much slower-footed and to a lesser extent slower-handed mega-star? For those who deign to already place him above Calzaghe on their all-time p4p rankings - is that just because he started out his pro career a drained teenage welter and picked up some belts along the way on the climb up while gaining his man-strength? If you consider SMW his true natural weight and the destination he was always bound for early on, how does his form at 168 compare with past greats like Ward and Calzaghe? What puts him in their company or suggests he would clear their rosters, or defeat either in a time machine?
     
  2. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Active Member Full Member

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    GGG is a greater fighter than Kessler.

    GGG was was a better MW than Kessler was a SMW, at their respective peaks.

    The Kessler Calzaghe beat would dominate 40 year old, natural MW, GGG.
     
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  3. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    Agreed.

    Mikkel the night he lost to Joe would dominate the Gennadiy the night he lost his trilogy fight with Canelo.

    Likewise, any SMW version of Joe we saw dominates any SMW version of Canelo we've yet seen, perhaps even to the tune of a Lacying. :thumbsup:
     
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  4. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Active Member Full Member

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    Agreed.

    Though perhaps not quite to the extent of Lacy!
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
  5. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    We have dozens of people in threads like this claiming to place Canelo top 50 all-time pound for pound:
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    How does that square with the fact that Calzaghe - who is undoubtedly superior, to my view - is typically considered "on the bubble" for a top 100? (some historians and experts omit him from theirs, while some put him on the back end but generally no higher than 80, and even that is only if someone is a self identified super-fan of his).

    If fighter A isn't top 100 and fighter B clearly isn't as good, how can anyone justify the position of saying fighter B is top 50? :thinking:

    (and yes, I'm well aware that Canelo fought at lighter weights for some years, but he seems to have dropped anchor where his "natural" weight appears to have leveled off, and has leveraged quite a large chunk of his prime on staking the better part of his case for greatness on his body of work at super middle...nor did any of his accomplishments from 147-160 exactly blow away undefeated prime Mikkel Kessler)
     
  6. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Calzaghe would of schooled Alvarez prime for prime, Calzaghe with his footwork, angles, workrate, would of had the flat footed low output Canelo utterly baffled.

    One final point about the win over Golovkin at Super Middleweight, Golovkin was 40 years old and had never fought at that weight. And clearly looked his age in a lackluster performance from him.

    Whilst Golovkin is a better fighter than Kessler, and would rank higher than him P4P. But at weightclass Canelo beat him at and also factoring in the age of Golovkin, clearly Kessler is the better win.

    Kessler was in his prime and most people thought the Calzaghe fight was a pick em, where as pretty much everyone heavily favoured Canelo to beat the aging Golovkin at Super Middleweight.
     
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  7. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    I still need someone to explain to me how folks were putting Canelo top 50 all time when even Calzaghe's biggest fans don't put him any higher than 80 (if he indeed even makes a top 100) and Calzaghe is clearly superior to Canelo. :thinking:

    The maths ain't mathing.
     
  8. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Active Member Full Member

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    I'm a Calzaghe fan and can see him out the top 100. I definitely can't see Canelo top 50 yet (I doubt he ever will be, but we will see).

    I've not got far enough down in my rankings to directly compare the too in detail and so I genuinely don't know who I'd rate the higher. If an argument can be made for Canelo, it's not H2H at SMW, but rather on depth of respective win resumes at all weights.

    I guess a lot boils down to whether you just go off the results, or factor in how the fights went, e.g. the 1st 2 GGG fights, Lara, Jacob's rehydration clause that wasnt present when he fought GGG, etc.
     
  9. Terror

    Terror Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Calzaghe UD. Too much size, volume and movement. He would be beating Canelo down by the end of it.
     
  10. MAJR

    MAJR Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would assume its because Canelo has been WBC, WBA and Ring Light Middleweight Champion, WBC, WBA (Super), IBF and Ring Middleweight Champion, Undisputed Unified Super Middleweight Champion, and WBO Light Heavweight Champion, making him a four weight champion who has held most of the big titles in three division.

    Calzaghe, on the other hand, held every major belt at Super Middleweight and the Ring's Light Heavyweight Title, making him only a two weight champion who only held one belt at his second weight.
     
  11. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    IDK. Plenty of guys are multiple division champions. That's good for clearing the bar for the IBHOF usually, but unless those wins are truly meaningful it doesn't earn you a spot in a top 50. Who did Canelo ever beat en route to SMW that, factoring in all context (ie the opponent wasn't shot, the outcome was not widely considered a robbery, etc), made for a greater deed than Calzaghe's very decisive victory over a prime Kessler?

    Would you put, for instance, Léo Santa Cruz or Adrien Broner above Calzaghe, just because they held titles in twice as many weight classes?
     
  12. MAJR

    MAJR Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I dont really know enough about Canelo or his career to make an argument about the quality of his opposition, nor can I really argue he's a top 50 fighter. I was merely suggesting the fact that he has been a world champion from Light Middleweight to Light Heavyweight is the justification people would have for ranking him higher than Calzaghe.
     
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