Joseph William Calzaghe vs. Santos Saúl Álvarez Barragán

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Jan 24, 2023.

The Welsh Dragon or Canelo?

  1. Calzaghe on points

    88.5%
  2. Calzaghe by stoppage

    8.2%
  3. Draw

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Álvarez on points

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Álvarez by stoppage

    3.3%
  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    The generally accepted super middleweight GOAT vs. the generally accepted current number one in the division.

    In light of all this chatter about where the Mexican fits into All Time Great rankings, let's first resolve if he first off has carved an equivalent legacy to and secondly if a case is to be made for him triumphing head to head over the reigning historical king of 168lbs.

    Their respective ledgers at SMW:

    • JCC Jr.
    • Rocky Fielding
    • Callum Smith
    • Avni Yıldırım
    • Billy Joe Saunders
    • Caleb Plant
    • Gennady Golovkin

    vs.

    • Paul Hanlon
    • Paul Mason
    • Spencer Alton
    • Martin Rosamond
    • Darren Littlewood
    • Karl Barwise
    • Mark Lee Dawson
    • Tyrone Jackson
    • Stephen Wilson
    • Anthony Brooks
    • Mark Delaney
    • Tyler Hughes
    • Chris Eubank, Sr.
    • Branko Sobot
    • Juan Carlos Giménez
    • Robin Reid
    • Rick Thornberry
    • David Starie
    • Omar Sheika
    • Richie Woodhall
    • Mario Veit x2
    • Will McIntyre
    • Charles Brewer
    • Miguel Jiménez
    • Tocker Pudwill
    • Byron Mitchell
    • Mger Mkrtchyan
    • Kabary Salem
    • Evans Ashira
    • Jeff Lacy
    • Sakio Bika
    • Peter Manfredo, Jr.
    • Mikkel Kessler

    Now, obviously that's a tremendous difference in quantity in Calzaghe's favor - 32 bouts versus 7 - but admittedly with a low concentration of quality throughout most of it, maybe half a dozen, or 18%, of those being victories to write home about. Most would probably agree their greatest respective victories at the weight are their last (in Álvarez's case, latest to date) - that is, Kessler and Golovkin. Some might argue that Golovkin is the overall better scalp than Kessler - but is that more in a prime for prime sense comparing GGG at middle with the Viking Warrior at super middle, or do really mean those specific version of them, on those nights?

    Is there anything in Álvarez's style that would bother Calzaghe? Would his relentlessly aggressive counter-baiting and body punching accomplish what 32 other individual couldn't (46 men if you include Calzaghe's forays into light heavy) or would Joe's awkwardness do its usual dastardly work and disrupt the more conventional boxing of the much slower-footed and to a lesser extent slower-handed mega-star? For those who deign to already place him above Calzaghe on their all-time p4p rankings - is that just because he started out his pro career a drained teenage welter and picked up some belts along the way on the climb up while gaining his man-strength? If you consider SMW his true natural weight and the destination he was always bound for early on, how does his form at 168 compare with past greats like Ward and Calzaghe? What puts him in their company or suggests he would clear their rosters, or defeat either in a time machine?
     
  2. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    Ah crud, @McGrain, mind moving one of these to General?
     
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  3. Glovedup

    Glovedup New Member banned Full Member

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    Everything about Calzaghe is wrong for Alvarez the outcome is a no-brainer
     
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  4. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    My gut feeling as well; in fact mine is "shutout".

    Yet some people have nudged Canelo above Joe all-time - which begs the question: why? Are they perceiving him as some Armstrong or Pacquiao like figure, competing higher in weight than he ought to be able to, and thus deserving of bonus multipliers when crediting his work? Is anyone really adopting the stance that Canelo is a natural 154lber out here slaying giants?

    If he belongs at 168, then it should be fair to compare & contrast him with the division's best. Under that scrutiny, how well does his vaunted ATG status hold up?
     
    iii likes this.
  5. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, Saul is not above JC alltime. His best win on paper is a very disputed win over GGG (second fight; third fight was meaningless).
    That's about it. JC had (so far) a much longer reign at 168, and if Clenelo loses to Bivol at 168, which I think is going to happen,
    all the Callum Smith wins in the world aren't going to bring him over JC.
     
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  6. Rilz

    Rilz Ball don't lie! Full Member

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    Calzaghe wins this one on the cards wide. Canelo may have his moments, but no sustained momentum. JC clowns him for long stretches.
     
  7. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    We have dozens of people in threads like this claiming to place Canelo top 50 all-time pound for pound:
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    How does that square with the fact that Calzaghe is typically considered "on the bubble" for a top 100? (some historians and experts omit him from theirs, while some put him on the back end but generally no higher than 80, and even that is only if someone is a self identified super-fan of his).
     
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  8. Rollin

    Rollin Active Member Full Member

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    Calzaghe slaps him a thousand times for all the roids and corruption.
     
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  9. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    Yeah, not letting this slide. :sisi1

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    All of y'all, explain yourselves. I'm calling you out because you all claimed to have Canelo in your top 50 all-time p4p, so does that mean a) you think he's greater than Calzaghe or b) you have Calzaghe inside your top 50 all time as well? There is no third option, it logically has to be either of those. :rosstheboss
     
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  10. MannyMMA

    MannyMMA The WBC stands for We Be Crooks - JT Full Member

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    Calzaghe Lacy's him
     
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  11. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Joe would Bivol him but he would do so in his own inimitable style and with a lot more razzle-dazzle. He'd be up for this one and I'd expect to see some showboating and perhaps even a little ginger taunting from him as soon as he got into his groove and started to flow.
     
  12. Komaster

    Komaster There is a tempest in me. Full Member

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    Joe SD Canelo, and I'd even like to think Joe slaps Clen at the weigh-in.
     
  13. Caliboxing

    Caliboxing Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Joseph by slapification UD. I have been saying that way before his Bivol loss too. Calzaghe has a similar style of high output that continues for 12 rounds, and great legs to. He has exactly what Canelo struggles with most, he'd befuddle Canelo.
     
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  14. WhataRock

    WhataRock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I still say the most one sided draw in history.
     
  15. Curlew

    Curlew Member Full Member

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    Canelo gets slapped silly, awarded three rounds purely because they were the only rounds he landed anything meaningful in. The post-fight interviewer laughs in his face when he claims he won. Millions of Mexicans apply for Welsh passports and laverbread becomes Mexico's national dish.