Juan Domingo Roldan vs John Mugabi

Bwahahaha. I did get accused of being you at one point by someone that is no longer with us LOL

Roldan is a hard fight for almost anyone. He could get a little disheartened later on sometimes but he'd push damn hard prior.

 

If he was prime against Terry Norris and if the Duane Thomas thumbing TKO is as meanigful as any TKO, then Hagler must have been completely shot in 1986.
I'm not going to argue one way or the other again on this.
It could be one or the other.
I tend to suspect Mugabi went on a decline post-1986 but that could be wrong. If he was prime in 1990 against Norris still, if he was the same fighter as he was in 1986 against Hagler ..... I can only conclude that Hagler was completely shot in 1986. But I think that would be somewhat of an exaggeration.

My opinion : Mugabi did better against Hagler than Hearns.
If you want to judge Mugabi harshly for some sort of "quitting" there against Hagler, you should perhaps say something harsh about how the Hagler-Roldan fight ended too, since you've claimed Roldan was "robust".
I swear the fight ended with Roldan telling the referee he didn't want any more.
Not that I want to be harsh to any of them. My view is that they are all absolute warriors.

 

Why would he not be prime against Norris? He had 38 fights under his belt with 2 losses one of which you blame on a thumb. He was 30. He'd been fighting a tad under a decade as a pro.

Hearns had 41 fights under his belt when he fought Hagler. He was younger and not been fighting quite as long but was schooling Virgil Hill at the 13 year mark. He was comfortably past Mugabi's stage when beaten by Barkley in everything but age and that was virtually a wash. Hearns was starting to wane but i will bet my life on it that you aren't giving him a virtual free pass like Mugabi against Norris.

Hagler was waning in 86 but certainly not shot. I will give Mugabi credit for putting forth the performance of his life and showing great determination until he reached that certain point. Hagler contrary to some opinion was never a killer puncher tho his power was certainly respectable and above.

His defensive decline gave Mugabi incentive to hang in there as he landed his share of bombs and the man could certainly punch.

Apart from Hearns Hagler had made pretty easy work of everyone for a decade excepting Duran who was clearly beaten imo and the Antuofermo draw which was hugely controversial. We just weren't used to Hagler being pushed hard and this makes the Mugabi bout stand out and gets John a lot of extra credit. I think peak Hagler would have handled him quite differently. Hagler was never an out and out bomber but diminished reflexes and speed saw him brawling against Mugabi.

So when have you seen a guy stopped from a single (alleged) thumb? When have you seen a guy turn his back completely on someone from a thumb and effectively hand the fight over?

I think it's a combination of things. Mugabi rising in a title shot, Hagler playing into Mugabi's strengths out of necessity due to age and decline etc. Lets be brutally honest - Mugabi never ever beat anyone on Thomas's level. He was a good solid contender and held a win over Sumbu Kalambay. This is a level up from anyone John ever beat.

In ways yes and in ways no. Hearns absolutely came closer to beating him with that cut. I also think the Hearns bout took a fair bit out of him as did Ray Arcel. Hagler was noticeably sharper in the Hearns bout. Mugabi kept him in there longer and i will say put up a spirited challenge. I love the fight and have watched it multiple times.

You really should quote me fairly. I said, and i quote exactly - "Roldan more proven and very robust early"

I don't think that needs further explanation.

Yes Roldan had a bit of quit in him at times. But as i allude to it was usually after a very spirited effort. Mugabi's was spirited too against Marvin.

They are all warriors for sure and i am glad you state that. You've copped a bit of heat in the past over comments to the contrary i think. Apologies if i remember wrong.

Anyway, as always it's great to exchange our different viewpoints in. You've challenged me plenty since i came back a few years ago.

At the end of the day much of this is about whether one gives Mugabi almost complete leeway post Hagler. I think way too many do. The Green bout showed probable fragility and he never beat anyone overly that good either before or after the Hagler bout. I find he gets almost exclusively rated on that losing effort (by quite a few) and practically completely exonerated on everything both sides of it. Thousands upon thousands of fighters have recovered from worse beatings and came back strong.

That's my 2 cents in the face of extreme nostalgia and adoration from the Hagler bout. I find massive punchers tend to grab our hearts and stretch our imagination at times. Mugabi for all his "non perfections" (imo) was certainly a BOOMING puncher and he invested heavily in those punches.

 

I try to keep it short nowadays but jeez that got a bit long.

 

All I can say is that John Mugabi looked way more durable against Marvin Hagler than he looked against Terry Norris 4 years later.
Therefore, I believe his durability degraded sometime during those 4 years.
The fact is, he fought Hagler in March 1986, lost the fight.
He fought Duane Thomas in December 1986 and was stopped by what seemed to be a thumb resulting in eye injury.
Then he took 13 months out.
He came back, won some fights, picked up a WBC 154 title against Rene Jacquot (by a scruffy knockdown that resulted in a fluke injury TKO it seems) before facing Norris and was knocked out in 1 round.
I don't see why it's so questionable that his durability degraded between the Hagler and Norris fights. It looks that way for starters .... and the circumstances can provide for it.

Of course, maybe he was prime for Norris, and Norris was just way more devastating than a 1986 Hagler.
redrooster can probably lend his support to that too !

 

The kicker for me is how badly he was hurt against James Green prior to the Hagler fight. For me the Hagler bout is the outlier. He has a very very dramatic moment prior to Hagler and a few thereafter. Green wasn't the hitter Norris was.

Rooters head is near shaking off in agreement

 

Both fighter 's gave the Marvellous one hell. Hard to pick as The Beast really only shined for one unforgettable night. I'll take the Beast in a see saw slugfest . Martillo has no Hagler chin and durability. Beast comes on like he did with Hagler in the 6rd and this time the Beast gets the stoppage.