Juan Manuel Marquez Had Lomachenko Winning 116-112...

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Pakkuman, Oct 22, 2020.

  1. shadow111

    shadow111 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well one thing this match has taught us, we continue to have very conflicting views about what happend and who won what rounds. You say Loma landed the cleaner and more shots in rounds 2, 4, and 6. I don't think anyone besides you has made that argument. Most saw it as Loma just not being active enough to win those rounds. A lot of the problem also stemmed from Loma's body language in the first half of the match. He did not look right, he looked like he was not ready to fight. That plays a role too, even if he landed the more cleaner shots he was being outboxed and outworked.

    As someone who values clean punching vs punch volume, I certainly get where you're coming from. GGG fans argued that Canelo had no argument to win rounds 7-9 in the first match despite landing the better cleaner shots in those rounds whilst being thoroughly outworked. There's a fine line between landing the cleaner shots and getting outworked. It depends how clean and impactful the cleaner shots of the guy being outworked landed, and it depends on the extent to which the fighter is being outworked. The shots that Loma landed may have been slightly better or cleaner than what Lopez was landing in the early rounds but nothing that I recall Loma landing in the first half of the match was jaw dropping. However Canelo did land some absolute bombs on GGG in the middle rounds that were much more impactful than anything Loma landed on Lopez in the early rounds but almost everyone unanimously agreed GGG won those rounds despite Canelo landing the cleaner shots. So we have a lot of inconsistencies and biases on display here when it comes to how to score rounds. But if you want to argue that Loma deserved to win rounds 2 and 6, or possibly round 4 as well, I think you're in the very small minority, but that's OK, clean punching is important and should be looked at every round so from that perspective I'm willing to hear you out and consider your arguments.
     
  2. Quina74

    Quina74 Member Full Member

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    Broo, if you have time or cba read the thread I created on round 2!

    You do have a good point on being out worked vs punches landed. However, In rounds 2, 4 and 6, one boxer is out landing the other boxer with cleaner punches but the other boxer is pressing the fight by moving forward, not landing punches (altho his best punchwas beautiful left hook just under Lomas elbow Rd 2) , landing on elbows, guard etc. In round 2, Loma isnt doing much and is dancing around like a bit of a fairy but he is still outlanding with cleaner accurate punches. The fight is of course scored over three minutes but one big punch can change the outcome (which is exactly why I gave Lopez round 12) Lopez's aggression and ring generalship however is not effective as in these rounds he 1. Receives more clean punches. 2. Misses far more than he throws. 3. Doesn't successfully cut off the ring. Forr Loma, his low volume offense and defense is effective because he 1. Outlands Lopez in rounds 2, 4 and 6. 2. Makes Lopez miss and hit guard, elbows.

    The key reason these rounds were given to Lopez is effective aggression. And I'd argue from my above points it wasn't effective at all, and contrary to what people think Lomas work rate was significantly lower than his previous fights but it was far more efficient than Lopez's.

    I believe a lot of people on here think some of those big shots actually landed. So many didn't.. I'll give you two examples. 2nd round theres a right hook from Lopez, followed by a right hook left hook to the body and right hand to head. The only thing that lands is the left hook. Example 2. The massive mmm uppercut and brilliant right hand from Lopez at the end of round 6. Despite what the commentators say, it did not land, and the slow motion replay confirms this entirely. I'll timestamp these for proof in next post.

    I'll say this what lands and what does not is very hard for a casual viewer to see, so in this scenario they are seeing Lopez's loud snappy shots land (but they land on gloves elbows, ropes) and Lopez moving forward so they give him the win. However, this is just wholly inaccurate scoring the fight. I can see why people scored the round 2 to Lopez, but he did not win it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  3. Quina74

    Quina74 Member Full Member

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    1:16..in fact at 0x25 speed the left hook clips Lomas elbow first.

    1:50 to 2:15... No uppercut no right hand...loma touches him with right hook as well whciu I didn't see previously.. But it's light

    That hook is better seen at 1:27..wow these commentators are dumb.. And damn far cleaner than Lopez.. (this is round 6) Round 2 and are undeniably Lomas tbh
     
  4. shadow111

    shadow111 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It deflected off his elbow but it was still a decent body shot, it still landed to the body with some power.

    Nice looping body shot by Lopez at 1:11 as Loma is on his bike. That still landed hard even though Loma was moving away. A nice lead right body shot by Lopez at 1:14. It's hard to give Loma the round when he's backing away for most of the round and absorbing body shots like that.

    2:13 - that right hand landed on Loma's chest as he was backing away. Not a flush shot but that still was a decent shot by Lopez to connect on Loma's chest as he was backing away. Loma is not used to getting caught with shots like this, usually he's too quick to get hit with that kind of a punch. Even though this downward chest shot wasn't too powerful this to me again shows that Lopez has some major quickness to land shots like this on Loma when he's backing away. Loma has made a name for himself by making guys miss, not Lopez, he was tagging him all over his body even when Loma was trying to avoid shots.

    That was a clean right hook from Loma right across Lopez's face but it didn't have much power on it. That right hook by Loma was in between two shots from Lopez, a jab to the chest (not much power, barely grazed him) but the right hand to Loma's right shouder landed harder and moved Loma back. That right hand to the shoulder from Lopez landed way harder than Loma's right hook, the commentators noticed that.
     
  5. Quina74

    Quina74 Member Full Member

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    1:11 is not round 2, round 1

    1:14 lead body shot in slow motion and normal speed confirms this is not clean when Loma is retreating but does land

    That right hand did land on the chest but as a Loma was retreating, still landed but its not really a significant scoring punch at all. Especially as your marginalising the right hook that Loma lands there.

    You can't score Lopez hittitng Lomas shoulder and him moving back as a clean accurate shot. Most boxing circles consider punches to the body and head as clean and effective punches not upper chest and shoulders.
     
  6. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Funny hearing a Mexican boxer giving rounds to a guy who was on his backpedaling bicycle for 7 rounds.
     
    shadow111 likes this.
  7. shadow111

    shadow111 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I mean a clean punch to the face is better than a punch to the shoulder all things being equal, but taking into account the much harder impact of a shoulder shot like that it's about on par with the clean hook to the face by Loma considering it didn't have much power, especially since Lopez's right hand to the shoulder it was in combination with the jab that came before it.

    But that was an excellent right hook by Loma there, it just didn't stand out since Lopez was overwhelming him with a steady stream of punches. In real-time you can't expect a judge to score that exchange to Loma.
     
  8. 22JM

    22JM Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Marquez also had himself winning all the Pacquiao fights, and also had Canelo beating ggg.
     
  9. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Well-Known Member Full Member

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    But your BFF Assol always tries to use that as some form of proof Canelo won. Either you agree with JMM on both scores he did, or more realistically, his opinion and scoring is simply his own, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Can't have it both ways.
     
  10. seansanashee

    seansanashee Boxing Addict Full Member

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    That card is terrible but 116-112 to Loma is just as bad.
     
  11. sid

    sid Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Card bad @ 119-109, I had it 116-112 to Lopez & that's about right.
     
  12. Quina74

    Quina74 Member Full Member

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    Broo come on. 1:27 how can you equate Lomas clean right hook that rocks Lopez head back.. Lopez is coming in as well.. to Lopez right hand to the shoulder when Loma is retreating. That flick jab did not land as well, what?? Come on bro, watch it again, there ain't much logic there for that just saying. If judges are gonna score points for lopez for that then they're either incompetent or we need to start using machines or some ****.

    However the 1:27 link isn't the one I was referring to it's the ones in one of my previous post. Dont think this was evne in round 2 or 6. The punches I've linked are in the context of the so called big punches in rounds 2 and 6. And these punches do not land contrary to what Bradley (mmmmmm) and everyone else is banging on about, these are the "punches" that somehow edged it to Lopez. I'm sorry but you cannot give round 2 and 6 to Lopez, at all, unless you score Lopez for ineffective aggression, blocked punches, and following his opponent around the ring. Lomas work is better and those big flashy punches don't land.

    Scoring a shot as cleaner if it hits the shoulder when an opponent is retreating vs a right hook that lands when an opponent is coming in is unheard of.
     
  13. Oddone

    Oddone Love child of Mike Tyson & Ronald McDonald Full Member

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    THIS.
     
  14. tee_birch

    tee_birch Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Surprise surprise. He’s still salty that Canelo gets the paydays he doesn’t as well.
     
  15. Pakkuman

    Pakkuman I'm not hot. I'm just BIG. Full Member

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    I don't think that's it. He could have made $20 million or more for a fifth fight w/ Pac. And that was back in 2012-2013.