Julio Cesar Chavez vs Pipino Cuevas.

Personally i don't see a very very beefed up past peak Chavez overly bothering the superb chinned (you basically stated this yourself, pre Hearn's) fully fledged 147 pounder that is Cuevas. He took a few massive Hearn's right hands before folding, Chavez at 147 was never going to put this sort of chin check out there. His stamina was good and he wasn't going to be worn down by the lighter man, and he could also take his man out late in the contest.

 

You would describe Chavez at 147 as prime????

Another thing, Chavez weighed just 142 vs Whitaker, even beefed up he can't make a genuine 147 and/or just plain knows he can't carry it.

 

Cuevas never stopped anyone with anything close to a Chavez level beard though.

And even looking at some of his most impressive victims, Clyde Gray had been stopped in his previous fight, Backus was done and dusted and Ranzany had already been stopped by an aging Muniz a year before.

Big as Cuevas would be compared to Chavez, I can't picture him stopping him. Chavez in his prime was never rocked, let alone hurt, let alone stopped, and he faced quite a few big hitters to test his chin. He had chin to spare on the guys he faced, and though he'd need it against Cuevas, I don't think Cuevas will crack it.

 

There'in lies our difference, i think Cuevas would crack it. The guys he stopped, he often didn't just stop them he broke bones and fractured eye sockets. Tho Cuevas lies below Hearn's class wise i see this akin to Hearn's - Duran with it's shocking surprise element. Massive punching big man stuns the much smaller great chin. Rosario IMO was the hardest puncher Chavez fought but he smothered him right out of his punching range. I thought Rosario stunned him for a split second at one stage in a Hagler - Hearns-esque moment, maybe a bit less noticable tho. I don't think Chavez could smother the stronger larger Pipino out of his punching range, and even so he can hammer damn hard in close and is more comfy there than Edwin. Just can't see the man wilting. I think this is one division too many for Chavez and his great effect.

 

Cuevas turned pro in 1971 and by 1976 already had 6 losses, one by KO (albeit his pro debut). But he was young. Still, coming off a LOSS to Andy Price, he got a title shot in his next fight (welcome to boxing) against Angel Espada, who had won the vacant WBA title. Cuevas had a string of good wins from 76 – 80, but not against anyone special, certainly not against a guy like Chavez. Then at age 22, in 1980 Cuevas gets stopped in 2 rounds by Hearns. In 1983 when Cuevas was 25 years old, Duran, a former lightweight, stops this killer puncher in 4 rounds. In 1985, 27 year old Cuevas gets stopped in 3 rounds by Herman Montes. In 1986, Jorge Vaca stops Cuevas in 2 rounds. Look, I don’t give any fighter in his 20s an excuse. Once they hit 30, fine, but if you are getting stopped multiple times in your 20s, you are not the type of fighter who is going to last with Chavez, certainly not the Chavez who in his 20s was never once dropped.

 

Cuevas was done after the Hearns destruction.

Certainly after the Duran loss, he was completely finished.

 

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I think you're being a bit harsh, and setting age limits on fighters percieved effective ages is far too vague to work. Pipino started at 14. Many would agree Hearn's ruined Cuevas. The KO in his pro debut would not compare IMO. Thomas stripped him of his peak period aura in emphatic fashion. A devastating KO. He hadn't fought for more than a year before Duran and had fought twice in over two years pre Montes. He was **** post Hearns and it was easy to see. He actually fought half decent vs Duran but never looked like winning. I believe Duran beats him at his best. I also believe cuties like Stafford (not sure whether Stafford would beat him pre Hearns tho, nothing special was Roger) and likely Starling were going to be his achilles heel. Chavez isn't a cutie like Stafford tho, not even close, and never carried the weight as well as Duran who was fantastic at 147. I just can't see a come forward much smaller fighter who didn't carry 147 convincingly beating Pipino.

 

Vockerman, thanks for the endorsement mate :good

Apollack has already noted how Chavez was pretty much done when DLH and Tszyu got to him, and I think he's right to say that those fights can't be used to guage Chavez's chin. But I want to point out another thing: who exactly did Cuevas stop to garner the reputation as one of if not THE premier hitter at 147? Are the guys he clobbered a good enough calibre to really earn him that distinction? Yes, he did BRUTALIZE the guys he stopped, but still, I'm just not that impressed with who he stopped, especially considering at what stage he stopped some of the guys he stopped. I would want a little more proof against some at least near elite fighters before I'd say he was a powermonger. We never saw him crush panyone that was near that.

Chavez could outbox him without wearing him down similar to say how he outboxed Rocky Lockridge when he hurt his hand. He wouldn't need to wear Cuevas down. Even if he did engage in trench warfare, I'd still favour Chavez to win, but I don't think he has the power to stop a prime Pipino and he'd have to take some massive shots to do it.

 

Yes sir, that is indeed a different view and I admit at the outset you could be correct. I don't see pre-Hearns Ceuvas being stopped by Chavez if that is what you mean, sir.

About the outcome of this theoretical fight my opinion is based on the notion that in 1979 against Randy Shields (a solid but not spectacular contender) Cuevas went the distance in a title fight against a man weighing only 142. Cuevas won a comfortable UD but Shields did come to fight...

I think that this is a near peak Cuevas, perhaps not his very best night - but in the ballpark.

Would a prime Chavez be better at 140 than the Shields at 142 who fought Cuevas that night?

Almost certainly.

Enough better to take a decision. I don't know...
I think perhaps so.

You seem to strongly believe that Cuevas takes this easily and I have great respect for your analysis and opinions. I believe I see some of your reasoning - If you have more opinions on this I really would like to hear more.

I'm old and can be a little slow to change my mind :!:
But I hope I'm still able to see reason and learn something :happy

 

Great points sweet scientist. Lets go with that. Here's who Cuevas fought in title fights prior to losing to Hearns and allegedly becoming a shot fighter at age 22. (sure cuevas turned pro at 14, but guys like chavez turned pro young too, and you don't see him getting KO'd four times in his 20s).

Espada – 7 losses prior to Cuevas.
Tsujimoto - 2 losses, one by KO prior to Cuevas, fought nobodies
Campanino – only 2 losses, but didn’t defeat a world contender
Clyde Gray – boxer, not a puncher, and had 5 losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, including a KO loss in his very last fight before “earning” his title shot.
Angel Espada (rematch) – Angel hadn’t beaten anyone that would legitimize his rematch, but this time he lasted 12 with Cuevas before getting stopped again.
Harold Weston – Had six losses and five draws coming in. A good boxer who had fought a lot of good fighters, but certainly not a puncher by any means.
Billy Backus – Had 19 losses coming into the fight, including 4 by KO, and a draw in his last fight prior to getting the title shot. Oh, and Backus fought Cuevas in 1978 – Billy turned pro in 1961.
Pete Ranzany – Had two losses, one by KO to Muniz the year before fighting Cuevas.
Clark – Only one loss, but it’s really sad because it was to a guy 5-6 and Clark fought utter and complete ****, had no argument for a title fight other than a fake record.
Randy Shields – boxer, not a puncher, had five losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, both KO losses coming the year before fighting Cuevas.
Espada (for the third time – I guess getting stopped twice earns you a rubber match) – hadn’t beaten anyone legit in the interim, manages to last 10 this time.
Volbrecht – 2 losses prior to Cuevas, one by KO, fought mostly nobodies.

 

Re the Hearns-Duran analogy, I think Hearns was more powerful and of course more quick and skillful than Cuevas and I think Chavez had an even better chin than what Duran did. I'm not saying Chavez withstands that bomb Hearns threw, but I will say that 147, (weighting 142) he could take Cuevas' punch.

 

Yeah, hardly the most compelling list to base a case off there.

Look no doubting Pipino could hit, he was a VERY powerful hitter and he damaged some guys well and proper, but i'm not going to call him the biggest hitter in the division off of that list. It's too inconclusive. It'd be like calling Miguel Cotto the biggest hitter at 140 becuase he stopped Bazan, Sosa, Corley, Maussa, Abdulaev and Bailey.

 

Chavez never fought anyone that would give an indication of how good his chin was at 147.

He may very well get brutally wrecked by someone like Mark Breland at this weight.

Chavez was not the kind of man to dig deep when the chips were down at a weight where he's really quite far past his prime.

I see him punking out after an accidental clash of heads around the 8th.

 

Regardless he wasn't beaten in between 1975 to 1979 excepting only by Cuevas in their 3 bouts. He beat the respecable Clyde Gray in this period.

Had won 18 of his previous 20. Also won the next 7 after Pipino.

Neither was Chavez at 147. Weston had drew Benitez, beaten Andy "The Hawk" Price, drew Saoul Mamby and tko'ed Vito Antuofermo pre Cuevas, not so bad?

Hadn't lost in 11 fights pre Pipino and at one stage had a TKO win over some guy called Jose Napoles for the unified world welterweight title.

Was 40-2-1 at the time of fighting with some quite reasonable results.

Don't forget to also tell us it occurred in just his 5th pro fight and he was unbeaten in his next 24 which were mostly early KO's.

Ko's to Ranzany and a guy called Benitez, also gave SRL a fine fight the year before fighting Cuevas. A solid fighter who fought the best of his era, if you beat him you were a real world class fighter.

Not so bad when opened up and balanced out. Certainly no-where near as bad as you try to spin it.