Just How Great a Heavyweight Was Ken Norton?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by RulesMakeItInteresting, May 12, 2019.



  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well Barkley wasn't a stylist or Wilfred Benitez. That wasn't his go .Duran was timing his counter right hand immaculately. He belted Moore with it and landed his share vs Hagler as well.
     
  2. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Member Full Member

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    As great as Norton looked against Ali (in the first fight), I don't think he ever was a better fighter than when he stood against Holmes. He was getting beaten to the punch, eating the jab and combinations over and over again, staggered multiple times....but he kept coming, and landing some seriously heavy shots.

    Though I don't consider that fight Holmes' peak (not just because of the injured left bicep but because Larry didn't really begin to step into his right until his first defense), however the fact that Ken withstood one poopload of a lot of killer, snapping punches and terrific foot work is a huge set of points in his favor.

    Just my opinion.
     
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  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    This idea that frazier had careful matchmaking and kept away from punchers loses a lot of merit based on the timing of the 2nd foreman fight. Foreman was on a seek and destroy mission and getting back into his old brutal self, yet Frazier, clearly past his prime, says screw it and tries to avenge his prior devastating KO loss.

    Yet people will accuse him of ducking men who were demolished by opponents frazier either beat or was willing to take on the winner. Its just like the whole Margarito vs Mayweather syndrome. Floyd fights the 3 men who beat the stuffing out of margarito but he's scared of him???

    The bigger your agenda, the more holes in the argument.
     
  4. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Member Full Member

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    This is an interesting argument.
     
  5. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This is nonsense. I get so irritated with people claiming everyone (including Joe) was ducking Liston after Ali. Liston got numerous offers to fights guys like Quarry, Bonavena, and Chuvalo and turned them all down. Instead he fought a whose who of bums. His two most threatening opponents post Ali were the powder puff puncher Henry Clark and Leotis Martin who knocked Liston out cold. Its laughable to suggest Frazier was avoiding Liston when Liston was going out of his way to fight FRINGE opponents. As for Norton, Frazier didnt duck him. They were stablemates and friends and had been outspoken about their commitment to not fighting each other.

    And thats where you lost all credibility.

    See above. You really should learn more about this era before pontificating on it.
     
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  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    He avoided them. Styles make fights and Frazier did not match up vs punchers.

    If you think Frazier’s style suited him vs punchers we can debate that.

    What your saying makes no sense. It’s like saying Frazier ducked jimmy young because he beat Foreman. I think Frazier beats young on styles and how they match up. Young’s victory over Foreman means nothing in a Frazier vs Young thread.
     
  7. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Member Full Member

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    Sure. Look at what Tyson accomplished overall compared to Joe. Granted Mike didn't have the heart of Frazier, but he punched harder and faster, took a decent shot, won the title twice, and was easily as effective in midrange as Frazier was inside. I love Joe and like him as a fighter more than Mike, However I'm guilty of being swayed by some of the arguments here. And you can shove the pontificating, bubs.
     
  8. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "He punched harder and faster"

    How exactly are you quantifying that? Do you have your radar gun and psi guage out? One could easily say he did what he did against a lower class of competition than Frazier, which would be true. I love Tyson but Im not kidding myself that Frazier fought in a much deeper era. A fighter is going to look better fighting lesser competition. Thats matchmaking 101. Frazier looked like Tyson when he was fighting guys on the same level as Tyson's opposition. When he was fighting Ali, Bonavena, Foreman, etc he looked a lot more human. Not because he was so much worse but because those guys were better than the Berbicks and Biggs that Tyson was looking like a wrecking ball against.

    And you may not like being talked down to but when you go talking out of your ass about Frazier ducking Liston and Norton it illustrates your ignorance of the era. Be prepared to get talked down to in that situation.
     
  9. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Member Full Member

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    Yes I do have a punch radar gun and I know a good place to shove it, son. It's all opinion you dildo. This is a forum.
     
  10. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Member Full Member

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    1 Muhammad Ali 2 Joe Louis 3 Larry Holmes 4 George Foreman 5 Jack Johnson 6 Evander Holyfield 7 Lennox Lewis 8 Mike Tyson 9 Joe Frazier 10 Klitshcko
     
  11. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Member Full Member

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    Now I'm wondering how high Norton would have been rated if he'd got the rightful decision in the third Ali fight.
     
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Member Full Member

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    This is a great point and makes me rethink my earlier position.
     
  13. Golden_Feather99

    Golden_Feather99 Member Full Member

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    You rank Quarry above Norton? Is it because Quarry has a deeper resume?
     
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    He avoided punchers yet the 2 best punchers he faced he fought them twice despite the fact he was floored and looked bad the 1st time he faced them.

    This discussion is over.
     
  15. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If you got your facts straight you wouldnt get mad when someone schooled you. Simple as that. Grow up and go read something and you wont get called out for making idiotic claims that arent grounded in reality. "Frazier ducked Liston" LOL. Joe Frazier was the best HW in the world at the time. Liston got knocked the **** out COLD by a guy who wasnt even the best HW in Philadelphia at the time. You couldnt drag Sonny into the ring with a top HW after the Ali fights. He was only interested in meeting the least threatening opposition he could for the most reward. When he beat Henry Clark, who wasnt exactly a world beater, he was offered a fight with Jerry Quarry in LA. Liston turned it down. Instead Liston fought Sonny Moore in Phoenix, AZ. Moores record was 21-29-2 and he had lost his last three fights by KO and two of those losses were to light heavyweights. At this point Frazier was signed to fight Oscar Bonavena who had only recently won a lopsided decision over Leotis Martin. After Liston predictably defeated Moore the promoters of that bout tried to match him with Jerry Quarry or Zora Folley. Instead Liston went down to Mexico and fought 4-6-1 Willis Earls who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights. Next up was Roger Rischer who had lost three of his last five fights, the his former sparring partner Amos Lincoln who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights (three by stoppage), and the fought Billy Joiner who was winless in his last 6 fights and whose last fight was nearly a year earlier against Liston. So you really want to argue that Liston was out there looking for the best fights? He was offered a title shot against Jimmy Ellis around the time of the second Joiner fight and turned it down as well. No, Liston wanted no part of the top guys and the reason why was evident when he met Martin, who was a good but not great fighter, that knocked Liston out cold.
     

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