Just How Great a Heavyweight Was Ken Norton?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by RulesMakeItInteresting, May 12, 2019.



  1. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Active Member Full Member

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    +1 You've got some interesting arguments, that's for sure. I'm not convinced, but definitely a thought-provoking post.
     
  2. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Active Member Full Member

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    As far as schooling me goes, don't forget I schooled your Mom, son.

    Suck on that. You don't know half what you think you do, bubs.
     
  3. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Personal insults without answering the actual arguments mean you lose. Talking about my mom and calling me son smacks of desperation to hide the fact that you are a child who clearly doesnt know his ass from his elbow when it comes to the particulars of this discussion.
     
  4. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Active Member Full Member

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    I never knew love before...then came you.
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Or he he fought Lyle, Shavers and Norton in the mid 170's, He's getting Ko'd at least one, maybe twice.

    Bonevena was not in the class of Shavers, Liston or Lyle as a puncher,. Foreman was, and look at what happened.
     
  6. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Its far more likely Frazier stops norton late, shavers punches himself out, and frazier gets off the floor to win a decision over Lyle. Could they have beaten or even KO'd Frazier? Possibly, but they certainly wouldn't be favored over a prime Frazier.

    If you knew anything about the 70's youd know shavers' and Lyle's careers constantly went up and down like a yo yo and lost to guys they had no business losing to (getting kod by quarry in 1, losing to ron stander, losing to ellis and young, etc). They were never consistently ranked, never had a belt. Frazier had no obligation to break his neck making fights with guys who at any given time might be coming off a loss in the 70's and lost to guys Frazier already beat! How do you even promote a shavers bout after the quarry round 1 ko and everyone has seen Frazier beat quarry 2x? How do you promote Frazier/Lyle when lyle had losses to Ellis (a guy frazier steamrolled) and lost so many other times he stepped up???

    The Norton fight didnt happen because they were friends.

    Wether you think Bonavena was on the top echelon of punchers, he was still a dangerous slugger. frazier was dropped twice and on wobbly legs early against him, bonavena was a bad matchup for him and they knew it. That took guts rematching him when it wasnt necessary. Same thing with foreman. You cant accuse Frazier's management of ducking punchers when they deliberately signed to fight the deadliest hitter in the division twice. No matter how you spin it, your argument is illogical.
     
  7. Sugar.J

    Sugar.J Fighting Farmer Full Member

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    Kenny always would struggle with an accurate power puncher or an overwhelming force like a 70s foreman his chin wasn't good his style kept him alive against Holmes and Ali and Young beat him honestly. Ken can have an argument to be a top fifteen heavyweight but he couldnt if he had fought Lyle or Fraizer it'd be two more blow out wins like Shavers and Cooney.
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Frazier said in the ring, he'd take his own brother out. Being friends with Norton would be nothing once the bell rang.

    Frazier vs Shaver's is close. Frazier was usually a slow starter. He could not take Shavers bomb, which his style puts him in the path of.

    Lyle nearly stopped Foreman. He also beat Bonavena easier than Frazier, and Mathis easier than Frazier. Frazier did not fight him.

    Regardless of what one poster said, I have heard from a guy who boxed and worship Frazier. According to him, Frazier's people didn't want a match with Liston.

    In the end, the record shows outside of Foreman who bounced Frazier up and down, and a solid puncher who also floored Frazier twice, and nearly KO'd him, Frazier's resume is pretty much void of big hitters.
     
  9. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Active Member Full Member

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    You're right.
     
  10. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    And yet he fought bonavena and foreman twice despite looking bad the first time he fought them. There isnt a single logical argument you can make that Frazier did not want to fight big punchers when rematched the 2 men who had him down the most and badly hurt. Neither of the rematches were mandatory elimimators or title shots, just pure guts.

    Liston was blackballed in the us for his blatant quit job against Ali and accused of taking a dive. He was on a bum of the month tour taking on guys no one heard of in sweden. By the time he stepped up and fought a serious opponent (Martin) he got brutally KO'd. When the hell was liston deserving of a big payday or title shot after the 2 ali fights? Id love for you to explain this. The man was 36 years old after he lost the title for crying out loud and had no ranking or belt. What would be the incentive? Liston wasnt exactly chasing guys down for fights either.



    0:58 Foreman explains that after Liston's embarrassing loss to Ali, he no longer cared about being champ or winning big fights. He lost his competitive desire and was "in it strictly for the money".
     
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  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Lyle didnt lose to Ellis, he beat him, although it was a badly faded version of Ellis. But your point stands. Its pretty hard to see how Lyle gets this rep as this big destroyer when really he built his rep on Fraziers sloppy seconds.

    Opponent Frazier Year Lyle Year
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Manuel Ramos TKO 2 1968 W 10 1971
    Chuck Leslie KO 3 1966 TKO 2 1972
    Scrapiron Johnson W 10 1967 KO 3 1972
    Mel Turnbow KO 1 1966 TKO 4 1972
    Buster Mathis TKO 11 1968 KO 2 1972
    Jerry Quarry TKO 7 1969
    TKO 5 1974 L 10 1973
    Oscar Bonavena W 10 1966
    W 15 1968 W 12 1974
    Jimmy Ellis TKO 4 1970 W 12 1974
    Al Jones KO 1 1966 TKO 5 1974
    Muhammad Ali W 15 1972
    L 12 1974
    L TKO 14 1975 L TKO 11 1975
    George Foreman L TKO 2 1973
    L TKO 5 1976 L KO 5 1976
    Joe Bugner W 12 1973 W 10 1977

    Notice a pattern there? In every single case there Frazier fought a younger, fresher version of the fighter than Lyle faced. Lyle's management was playing a nice game of trying to build their fighters career up on the back of Joe Frazier's wins, drawing comparisons but the problem is that most of those guys were well past their prime when Lyle got them and directly in their prime when Frazier fought them. Furthermore, its notable that from the time Lyle entered the big leagues against Quarry in 1973 until the time he was basically finished as a real contender in 1977 he had 20 fights. In those twenty fights he only had six KOs. Those six KOs came against Jose Luis Garcia who was coming off two stoppage losses, one of which was a first round KO loss less than three months before he fought Lyle, which wouldnt even be allowed today, Juergin Blin in his last fight, Boone Kirkman who was coming off two stoppage losses, Memphis Al Jones whose record was 8-20-2, Earnie Shavers (probably the best win on Lyle's resume), and Kevin Isaac who had never been scheduled for much less fought a ten rounder in his life and whose biggest win was a DQ over Raul Gorosito in a fight he was on the verge of losing by KO when Gorosito got to eager and hit him on the break. So yeah, not exactly a murderers row of guys that give the impression that Lyle was some monster. He could be dangerous for sure but he wasnt a great boxer, wasnt particularly fast, didnt have a lot of experience, was old for a fighter, and he could be beaten both boxing and slugging. Oscar Bonavena didnt shy away from banging with Lyle and an old fat light heavyweight Peralta was able to fight Lyle off anytime he was cornered so Lyle wasnt exactly a lock to just break down anyone who got in his way.
     
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  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Thanks for the correction i mixed up ellis with young. Lyle was just a big tough inmate who could bang pretty hard when he sat down on his punches but he didnt have the best delivery system for producing that power in an actual fight against a skilled opponent. He looked so remarkable against shavers and foreman because they fought his kind of fight and slugged.

    Its not a coincidence anytime he stepped up in class against a skilled fighter he trailed on the scorecards. Sure he'd have a punchers chance but thats about it. Big difference in class. Either way, this idea he was scared of Lyle or Norton is hilarious since he decided to rematch the guy who KO'd them both.
     
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  13. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Exactly. Lyle lost in one sided fashion to Quarry, was knocked out by both Ali and Foreman and Frazier fought all three of those guys both before and after they beat the hell out of Lyle. In the case of Ali and Foreman it was within months of them knocking out Lyle. So the idea that Frazier was running from Lyle is comical. Same with the people who say he ran from Shavers. Nobody knew who Shavers was until June of 1973 when he knocked out Ellis in the Garden, the same Ellis Frazier had knocked out three years earlier. By June of 1973 Frazier was already a former champion and had just six more fights in him before he retired whereas Shavers would get his jaw broken by fringe contender Jeff Merritt that summer resulting in a six month layoff. In December Shavers would get knocked out in a round by Quarry resulting in a six month layoff for Shavers. While Shavers was nursing his wounds Frazier signed to fight: QUARRY. And then proceeded to knock him out. When Shavers came back he knocked out journeyman Cookie Wallace in a round, took another six months off, then got dropped and lost a decision to journeyman Bob Stallings who had a 21-24 record at the time. Three weeks later Shavers took on Frazier's sparring partner Jimmy Young and was lucky to get a draw in that fight. Shavers then had three fights against very weak opposition before facing Lyle later the following year and getting knocked out. So from mid 1973 to late 1975 Shavers was winless against anyone with a pulse. By the time Shavers was knocked out by Lyle Frazier was already signed to fight Ali for the title in Manila. After the Manila loss he took nearly a year off and came back against Foreman who was a damn sight more dangerous than Shavers and after losing to Foreman he retired. So anyone who thinks Frazier was ducking Liston, Shavers, or Lyle is nuts. It simply wasnt in the cards for a variety of reasons and to put it simply Fraziers era was basically a time when Liston wasnt interested in getting his ass kicked by younger bucks and Lyle and Shavers were still in diapers.
     
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  14. ronnyrains

    ronnyrains Member Full Member

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    Kenny was 5-5 vs the top ten, no slouch by any means, and will be a former WBC Champion.

    top ten victories, ALI, KIRKMAN, QUARRY, BOBICK AND JIMMY YOUNG

    Losse's, ALI (twice), Foreman, Holmes and Cooney.
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    6-4, he won the 3rd Ali fight.

    Also whomever thinks Lyle earned his rep as a puncher vs Frazier opponents needs to watch what he did vs Foreman.

    Lyle was also up on points over Ali until Ali landed a big right hand in the 11th. The stoppage was controversial.
     

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