Just re-scored Kovalev vs Ward. 2nd scorecard comparison with 1st card

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by NewBoxingOrder, Nov 21, 2016.


  1. NewBoxingOrder

    NewBoxingOrder Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ok, I just re-watched the Ward-Kovalev 1 fight. Not surprisingly, I got a different result in scoring it the second time as compared with the first.

    I'm going to put both cards up now. 1st card presented is the initial scoring I did, and then the 2nd the second. Highlighted rounds in the second card are rounds I changed.

    After both cards are put up, I will then discuss what I saw the second time, the 10th round, and the 12th round.

    As with my live viewing of the fight, I watched the second fight with no sound and no outside manipulation (seeing Harold Lederman's card on the screen, etc).


    LIVE SCORECARD (Scorecard 1)
    R01 ===> 10-9 SK
    R02 ===> 10-8 SK
    R03 ===> 10-9 SK
    R04 ===> 10-9 SK
    R05 ===> 10-9 AW
    R06 ===> 10-9 SK
    R07 ===> 10-9 AW
    This content is protected

    R09 ===> 10-9 SK
    R10 ===> 10-9 SK
    R11 ===> 10-9 AW
    R12 ===> 10-9 SK

    117-110 Kovalev
    This card above is exactly Lederman's card except I gave Kovalev the 8th and he didn't


    SECOND-VIEWING SCORECARD (Scorecard 2)
    R01 ===> 10-9 SK
    R02 ===> 10-8 SK
    This content is protected

    R04 ===> 10-9 SK
    R05 ===> 10-9 AW
    R06 ===> 10-9 SK
    R07 ===> 10-9 AW
    This content is protected

    R10 ===> 10-9 SK
    R11 ===> 10-9 AW
    R12 ===> 10-9 SK

    114-113 Kovalev
    Gave Ward 3 more rounds on second viewing than I initially gave him


    I think what happened to me when watching the fight live was that, after Ward was knocked down (and because of his lesser power), I was not giving him "ring generalship"/"aggressor" points because, honestly, he did not seem like much of a threat to Kovalev and he seemed like the smaller, less-strong fighter. Basically, after the knockdown, I think I was seeing Ward as someone who was trying to survive and not get overrun rather than someone who was mounting an effective counter-attack as the fight wore on.

    In the second viewing, I took that perspective ("Ward only surviving") out of my lens for the fight.

    Also, after watching the fight a second time I can see how the judges could have been swayed in Rounds 10 and Rounds 12 (rounds I gave Kovalev) and I'll discuss that now.

    Round 10 ------> Statistically (CompuBox), I think Round 10 was one of Kovalev's best rounds. And he was shoe-shining Ward with the jab the entire round. It was definitely Kovalev's round, but Ward landed a "balance shot" I think midway through the round that slightly moved Kovalev and got the crowd up and may have affected the judges in the round.

    Round 12 -------> Once again, Kovalev won this round from a CompuBox perspective. However, what I noticed in this round was that Ward came out much more aggressive to start the round and that forward motion could have swayed the judges and led them to give Ward the round based upon his coming forward moreso than he had done earlier in the right. People have said that Hunter told Ward he needed a knockout to win, and Ward seemed to come out in that kind of a mode. Very aggressive. Kovalev took control about midway through the round, but that early Ward surge could have gotten him the round on the judges' cards.

    Without knowing it, my 2nd Scorecard exactly matched the CompuBox round-by-round results. That's probably because I was very focused on landed punches while watching this time around and didn't have to worry about what was going to happen in the fight because I already knew what happened.

    In summary, Ward did better than I thought he did once I looked at the fight as more of an even contest rather than as an encounter between a bully and a victim. I still feel Kovalev won the bout, but Ward did more than I thought he did. And, given what I said about Round 10 and Round 12, there is a potential way to award Ward the decision. Even if I think Kovalev won and I think the crowd may have affected the judges.

    So, rematch. Do it right, and do it fair. Kovalev deserves to have non-American judges, a non-American ref and a non-American crowd.

    I hope that happens, and hopefully they will fight again.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
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  2. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    I respect that!:thumbsup:
     
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  3. NewBoxingOrder

    NewBoxingOrder Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks.

    I'm a fan, but I try to be as objective as possible when scoring fights. No matter who I was rooting for.
     
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  4. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Outstanding post, with some solid reasoning throughout.
     
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  5. NewBoxingOrder

    NewBoxingOrder Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks bro.

    You and I have pretty much always seen things eye-to-eye. I respect your opinion quite a bit, so your comments mean even more to me because they are coming from you.

    Cheers.
     
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  6. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks. I appreciate the kind words. :thumbsup:

    I think where you really nailed it was with this: "I think what happened to me when watching the fight live was that, after Ward was knocked down (and because of his lesser power), I was not giving him "ring generalship"/"aggressor" points because, honestly, he did not seem like much of a threat to Kovalev and he seemed like the smaller, less-strong fighter. Basically, after the knockdown, I think I was seeing Ward as someone who was trying to survive and not get overrun rather than someone who was mounting an effective counter-attack as the fight wore on."

    I think we all have a tendency to do that from time to time. You see a fighter hurt, who is a defensive fighter on the whole to begin with, and after a big knock down, you get the impression the felled opponent is simply retreating for survival purposes, because that does tend to happen more often than not. In this case with Kovalev, I can see that instinct being amplified. After all, whenever Kovalev hurts someone, it usually spells certain doom. It's also worth nothing that early on, this engagement seemed to have eerie similarities with the Kovalev-Hopkins match.

    But Hopkins was trying to wait things out to see if Sergey tired or made a big mistake, which he never did, effectively putting Hopkins into survival mode. Hopkins NEVER had a round like Ward did in the 3rd. Ward's efforts in the 3rd, where many were probably expecting Kovalev to finish him off, are what enabled him to turn the tide slowly over the next few rounds, which ultimately enabled him to shift the momentum in round 7.

    Once again, that was an excellent post.
     
  7. NewBoxingOrder

    NewBoxingOrder Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Good points, for sure.

    There's a reason why Lederman and myself scored the fight as we did, and I think it was that "confirmation bias" of believing Ward was kind of "in retreat" after the knockdown. As you said.

    But once you come to the fight without that perspective then you can see things in a different way. Watching the fight again helped me to see things in a way I didn't see them when watching live.
     
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  8. Ukansodoff

    Ukansodoff Deontay plz stop ducking Joshua. Thank you. Full Member

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    well i could watch that fight a hundred times and dont think id ever give it to Ward. Certainly wouldnt narrow it down to a 1 point victory to Kov either.

    Everybody talking about Wards inside game. All i saw in most occasions of inside fighting was a hook or jab to Kovalevs arm followed by Ward running in and hiding under the Russians armpit. Throw a punch then get so close Kov cant do anything, get seperated then lunge in and get straight back into the comfort of Kovs armpit. Thats not all he did all night but there was so much of that in each round which i just see as cheating that it must of took up half the fight.

    Boxing and fighting have never been so far apart from this sport as it is these days. But then i do admit to not scoring it like a professional judge i do it as a fan. Just dont see how somebody can land less punches, less effective punches, get off the floor, do so much holding and wrestling while his opponant wants to fight and still win the fight.
     
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  9. qwertyblahblah

    qwertyblahblah Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I haven't yet had time to rewatch, but I think I might have similarly slightly favoured one guy on momentum scoring it live. I scored the 3rd for Kovalev after the knockdown round when he maybe didn't do that much, and I scored the 4th for Ward, when I might have been too impressed with him. The only other round my live scoring differed from your second scoring was the 6th, which won the fight for Ward for me. I thought Ward had figured out Kovalev by then and he was controlling the fight by then, and might have ignored Kovalev's effectiveness in the 6th.

    I think your live card was plainly bad. Funny that Lederman has often insisted judges should never rescore fights and that the live score is always the best, as a rescore will be biased by post-fight reaction. I think that just shows his stubbornness, and probably why he's continued to stupidly overrate ineffective aggression.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
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  10. PaddyGarcia

    PaddyGarcia Trivial Annoyance Gold Medalist Full Member

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    I think that's pretty fair. And what's kinda cool is - save for a few posters on either side - everyone respects it was close and both guys showed they're top level fighters. Let's get the rematch on!
     
  11. jmashyaka

    jmashyaka Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Your first score was ludicrous but I can respect the second score. Glad you gave it a rewatch bro.
     
  12. Daft P

    Daft P Active Member Full Member

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    Terrific post, congratulations. Pretty much sums up the whole thing. Round 12 is very difficult to score - the only aspect I might add is that Ward stole the very end of the round too with some sneaky punches / budy punches, while Kovalev's most significant attempt was a miss. I think Ward edged Rd 12.

    As many others have pointed out, this was the kind of fight when even rounds should have been scored. Rounds 3, 4, 6 and 12 were very close respectively. I felt before the 12th that the last round should decide the fight. But it didn't, so probably a fair solution is to score it 10-10 and then you have 114-114.

    There is really no other way around it, there is an inevitable rematch. We need to see rounds 13-24 ASAP.
     
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  13. jmashyaka

    jmashyaka Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Great post, Lederman is a joke he just rates the popular front foot fighter but watch how he switches for this loma fight where he will favour the boxer for the puncher.
     
  14. nurological

    nurological Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I scored it 114-113 for Kovalev twice 2nd with the shocking sky commentators turned off as they stopped calling Kovavlevs shots from about round 3. Thought this may have swayed me but i had identical cards. People seem to give ward credit early on for not doing as bad.

    Had it level going into thr final round.
     
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  15. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Still butthurt over KO4Clev I guess.:lol: