Just watched Marciano vs Louis...........A terrific fight

I agree that Louis was still competitive at age 37, but he was still somewhat of a shell compared to his prime version.

In my opinion, Louis was at his best between probably 1937-1942. He was in his mid to late 20's, and beating the hell out of all time greats on an almost monthly basis, with great ease. He would later join the services and his boxing career became limited to mere exibitions against average fighters, not to mention constant traveling and his training was probably reduced to more or less maintance. There is a big difference between training to look good, and training for a 15 round fight against a top rated contender.

By 1947/48 Louis was already showing signs of deterioration, and by 1951 was basically shot by comparison to what he was. Still, he was one of the best in the world in 1951, and was a decent win for the ROCK, but in the end, I think a prime Louis would prevail.

 

On your last paragraph, I held off commenting until you did and you hit the nail on the head. Liebling sat "well forward in the mezzanine" and later mentions that "I could see Seaman pressing an ice bag against the back of Louis' neck, and when I turned my binoculars on Charley Goldman's face, he was grinning." BINOCULARS? Doesn't sound exactly like ringside, does it.
This seems to me the key paragraph in the coverage:
"When the fifth round ended, marking the halfway point of the fight, I felt that it was a long way home but that Louis would make it. He had hardly used his left hook, which was now his best punch. Critics had been saying for years that his right had lost its authority, but the hook had existed in all its pristine glory as recently as the Savold bout, and he had it in the training camp when I was watching him. ("It would take a Goliath to withstand a couple of those," old Colonel Stingo had said solemnly.) The way I figured it, Louis was being so careful about that crazy Marciano right that he was afraid to pull his own left back to hook. He would just jab and drop his right forearm onto Rocky's right biceps, so he couldn't counter. Sooner or later, Joe would throw the hook, I thought, and that would end the fight. It looked like a fight between two men with one good hand apiece."
But, he goes on, Marciano comes on in sixth and seventh, as Louis seemed to slow, until at the end of the seventh, Louis does throw the hook:
"Then, toward the end of the round, Joe threw the hook. It was beautiful. It hit Marciano flush on the right side of the jaw, but it didn't seem to faze him a bit."

Liebling is a great writer and a good observer, but we have the entire fight available on film to study and I agree with you that it is the best source.

 

A fighter when he gets older can lose his reflexes and foot speed but he never loses his punch, Joe was such a talent that he could have proberly still beaten a lot of decent fighters. We saw Dempsey with Sharkey(left hook) and Foreman at 44 still had power. Louis had power and some good skills but he was off on his reflexes and the ending was brutal. Marciano impressed me with his left hook abilty to set up the right hand and weird rythym that is hard to time. Marciano showed good speed and power combined because his punches were deadly. Louis was not a shell of a fighter like Ali vs Holmes and Berbick or Jeffries vs Johnson, in fact that version of Louis would proberly Ko a few top guys around today, in the 80's and 70's. That Joe Louis was a better fighter than Valdez(who I think is overated) and Baker who was ko'd by Moore and Satterfield. I heard that older Louis Destroyed Valdez in sparring and it does not suprise me. I dont know how a fight between a prime Louis and Marciano would have played out and it does not matter to me. Joe still had great acomplishments and is my # 1 Heavy ATG, Marciano was a freak with brutal power and strength who could fight that way for 15 rds, he also was not a text book fighter and this worked to his advantage. He was not slow because he beat fast rythym fighters to the punch and broke there Rythym, if his punches were akward he caught them with those punches. Marciano KO'd 43 of 49, he is my #2...a fight between the 2 prime 4 prime would have been a great one

 

I think Marciano's best overall performance ( not effort ) is the Louis fight. He looked a bit quicker and sharper to me vs Louis.

 

IMO, Marciano's worst fight on flim is vs vs Savold, and that is just a few months after Louis.

 

Who cares how the Rock look in that fight?? He walk away with the W. He may not have look pretty doing it, but hey a win is a win.

 

Yes, but he won every round and put Savold in the hospital. By the way, there is a complete tape of the Liston-Besmanoff fight on youtube and I recommend it. This fight was much like the Marciano-Savold fight with Liston dominating but not being nearly as impressive as in his best performances.

 

I used to go to the fights regularly in the70s and 80s ,probably saw about 150 of them,I had a connection that got me very good seats usually ringside or 2nd row ,I allways took a small pair of opera glasses with me,I found them quite usefulin spotting cuts and the expression on fightes faces after they were hit,how many times have you watched a fight and heard the commentary ,where a commentator has missed the effect of a big punch or the fact that a fighter is cut? Liebling was a very astute student of the game,I agree there is no substitut for seeing a fight yourself ,and nosubstitute for seeing it live in the flesh.If I hadnt seen the fight I wouldnt comment on it.In the fight do you see Marciano shaken or hurt by Louis's punches because I dont ,the jab cuts him and as he said "I just had to take them" but the punches that used to stop men in their tracks didnt prompt any reaction from Marciano.There is a misconception about this famous old chest nut,"the last thing to go is your punch",when your reflexes and legs go , you still see the openings for a punch ,but the signasls from your brain to your fists are late getting there and your legs are slower getting you in to position to throw the punch.

 

Ive seen highlights of Valdes against Richardson,Cockell andLondon ,Valdes was past his best then ,in fact London was his last fight.Valdes looked powerful with a heavy punch but not overquick and he was a bit vulnerable himself,of course by the time I saw his clips he was on the way down and probably not super motivated.He had no problem with Cockell stopping him on a cut eye ,but he would have kod Don sooner or later ,Cockell was finished by Marciano.Richardson was tkd and a 35 year old Valdes stopped London. Ive seen clips of Valdes v Machen I think it was ,so I havent a lot to go on ,he may have been a lot sharper when he was younger ,most of us were.,but he was very inconsistant ,the curse of the 50,s heavweights,I dont think Rocky ducked him,Al Weill might have been apprehensive about taking him on but Marciano would have stretched him imo.

 

I don't think they could, but without the flu, a lot of people here could beat contenders.

 

I may have made too much of the binoculars, but the mezzanine does not sound like ringside, although I was never in the old Madison Square Garden.
It is better to see a fight live, but the film allows us to study the fight over and over. I think in the end you can see more if you study the film carefully. Just an opinion.
It does seem pointless to argue Louis couldn't time and catch Marciano with a hook when he timed and caught Marciano with at least two--there was also one in the first--but they had no impact. Louis had gone back, but it is also true that Marciano could take a punch much better than the opponents who were stopped in their tracks in the 1930's.