Dempsey's heart was not in it at this time. In his training towards the bout he had as many off days as he did good. Still, you'll notice he makes the rounds much closer in the second fight than he did the first. He was in better shape for the rematch, but he still commented about how easily he was winded and how his legs were slow. Tunney was a demon. A super-precise boxer with all the intangibles. He trained like a robot and did very well to get up and control the rest of the fight like he did.
The Dempsey-Tunney argument is much like the Castillo-Hatton argument. Many say Castillo was old but in all honesty can you see Castillo not tasting hell if he was ABSOLUTE prime? Same for Dempsey, even if he is in his ABSOLUTE prime Tunney takes him to hell and back again.
To me, the key instant in Tunney/Dempsey II was the exchange that set up the Long Count, when Tunney jabbed, Dempsey canted his head to his left, and rammbed his "Iron Mike" from the other side of Gene's extended left to the temple, wobbling Tunney from ring center, to where Dempsey nailed him with his hook as Gene ricocheted off the ropes. If the Dempsey of Toledo had been in there with Tunney, he would have been slipping Gene's jab repeatedly in that fashion, stunning him with that counter right, over and over. The version of Dempsey who dethroned Willard wouldn't have been barely grazing Tunney with the right-left-right combination he followed up that richocet hook with either, but would have landed all three of those punches flush on Gene. Even in that situation, Tunney would have easily beaten Dave Barry's count, even if Jack retreated immediately to a neutral corner, but after continually knocking Gene silly, there would have been no choice left but to stop the contest.
I'll add to that, using Ferdie Pacheco's book, The Twelve Greatest Rounds of Boxing, copyright 2000, Total Sports Illustrated, publishers, pp. 28-29: So as to just using how Barry counted over Dempsey to conclude he was probably crooked, Pacheco/Kahn add a few more things to the list. As to this one by achillesthegreat: I can't agree with that. Minus the long count, he might have gone on to beat Dempsey in this fight because Dempsey was getting up there in age, and had been through a lot of battles and trained little. However, in his prime, I think Dempsey could have ripped off Tunney's head and crapped down his neck, sorry. I still remember reading a story about Dempsey walking to his restaurant in New York when he was in his seventies, and two guys chose him as an easy mark to mug. One punch apiece had them on the ground waiting for the cops. Whether or not this proves he was a good boxer, for an around-75-year-old boxer to do that sort of suggests he had more than enough power forty years earlier. In short, everyone's got their opinions, no one will ever agree on this fight, but I've offered a few more opinions here. Take them as you will. 8)
Note: I forgot to mention that (although perhaps many of you already know) that the quoted Roger Kahn is a Dempsey biographer, having written Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring 20's, in which he also says that, upon watching replays of that round in Dempsey-Tunney 2, when Barry IMMEDIATELY starts counting over Dempsey while Tunney is standing right there, "I am watching a crooked referee in 1927 Chicago."
..............Nothing but conjecture. Not a shred of real evidence there. In the end, no one can say that Dempsey's knockdown of Tunney was handled outside the rules. And yes, he may have started a quick count on Dempsey when he was knocked down in the following round, but if one was to look back at referrees' performances over the years, there have been a hell of a lot worse transgressions, and no one calls them crooked. Where in Phoenix are you from? I used to live there........
BTW, the fact that Tunney borrowed two hundred grand from a mobster ain't conjecture. If you watch the film, too, Barry is counting over Tunney REAL SLOW, and that is after the timekeeper was up to five before Barry starts counting.
.............I lived on 85th and Belleview in Scottsdale, near where the Motorola plant is/was. By the old Los Arcos Mall, which is defunct now, as I understand it.
Yes. Dempsey was better trained the second time. Dempsey was by no means slow. Tunney's quick feet, stmaina, and mental focus didn't give Dempsey a chance to land much. Tunney knew the ropes and the corners would be his bane, so he boxed, and moved.
Yup, they tore it down, I think. Not sure what's in its place now. BTW, I liked Salvador Sanchez too.
The excuses people come up with for Dempsey are like that of Liston for Ali. Dempsey, like Liston, is a great fighter but got he PIMPED... ...TWICE!
Bumping a 2007 thread. While it's okay to try to get the man into the neutral corner, the referee should then pick up the count from the time keeper. I believe, if he had done so, Tunney would have been counted out.