KEN NORTON 'His Own Worst Enemy'

I agree with this - if Norton was afraid of Shavers, why take the March '79 match with him - he wasn't obliged to, was he? (That's a genuine question, by the way).

 

what made shavers was the norton win. ernie was not fancied against ali at all. ron stander beat him, despite his punch shavers was considered to have serious stamina issues. ken beat quarry who beat shavers in one round. my guese is ken thought he would do the same.

 

I believe that Norton DID win that 3rd bout in '76..just like I believe that Young beat Ali in '76. It's awfully dispiriting for a fighter to beat both his opponent AND 3 filthy, dishonest, politically motivated officials. This crap about favoring a champion automatically when the rounds are close is what's to blame as well. If you outscore the champ on the tallied scorecards after the ffight by 1 single point, you should win the title...period...and to quote Mr. Bill.,... WORD!!!

 

I don't see Norton ever beating a prime Shavers.

Shavers was big enough to force Norton going backwards.....and then the heavy punches start coming in and Norton hits the deck.

 

Thank you Il Duce for agreeing with me and red cobra for stating the truth. The judges had no problem letting Holmes beat Norton by a point and winning the championship. I thought in a close fight the champ gets the nod so how do you explain that? Politics that's how...plain and simple.

 

come on, regardless of the scoreline holmes looked a much clearer winner against norton than ali ever did! I coundnt give norton more than 5 rounds agains holmes.

 

Il Duce,
Thanks for your reply. :good

Yes, I do remember that Kenny was a big favourite against the Acorn (time to 'fess up, Norton was my favourite 70's heavy, closely followed by Smoke!).

But, ironically, I think that the fact that Norton CHOSE to fight Shavers, probably consensus hardest hitting heavy of Norton's era, proves that Norton wasn't scared to fight big punchers - don't you agree?

 

Yes, he was obliged. Because that was the "formality" necessary to properly build up and secure the widely anticipated rematch with Holmes. The questions about Earnie's stamina had subsided as a result of Ali-Shavers, Shavers-Clark I, Shavers-Tiger Williams and Holmes-Shavers I. The flip side of course is that the power of the aging Shavers didn't seem quite so formidable, particularly as Holmes took it seemingly in stride early in their first bout. Foreman-Norton was a distant memory by then, so Ken was fully expected to earn the Holmes rematch. (Of course this was also the hoped for result, given how lopsided Holmes-Shavers I was.)

I don't think he was afraid of Earnie after Holmes-Shavers I. However, neither do I believe he would have taken the risk unless it was necessary to get a rematch with Holmes.

What endeared Earnie to the public was his personal likability, and perception of vulnerability and heart, much more so than his power. As was the case with the shy and soft spoken Cooney, he didn't intimidate people like Foreman, Liston and Tyson with a veneer of menace. This was an Ohio country boy with a sweet Alabama accent, a devout Christian family man devoted to his several daughters. Some fighters shaved their heads to look scarier. When he shaved his head, he looked like Fred "Curly" Neal of the Harlem Globetrotters! Have you seen him during the referee's instructions prior to taking on Ali? Shavers couldn't even win a stare down with SRL. (Did Ray ever win a stare down?)

However, once getting hit and hurt by Earnie in competition, of course it's too late. Only the obscenely tough Henry Clark (who was never floored in competition despite taking on more deadly punchers than Chuvalo) and Jimmy Young ever chose to come back for seconds. (After Shavers-Norton, of course Holmes had no choice.)

Again, Norton's record and opponent selection with no title or title shot on the line needs to be scrutinized carefully. The fact is that he did not take on a Mac Foster, Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Bernardo Mercado, Kallie Knoetze or Gerrie Coetzee when it wasn't necessary for him to get to the championship. He also took a lot of grief on camera from NBC colleague Tom Brookshier for the loss to Foreman good naturedly, but the fact is that he never opted for a rematch with a dethroned Foreman like the brass balled Frazier did in a bid for redemption. (Like Patterson and Burns, there will always be the fact of who Joe lost his title to. Unlike them, he took on George that second time with nothing to regain except his pride from the ambush in Kingston, and Foreman's accusation that a man with no quit in him was a quitter in Jamaica. And George was wondering then why fans were booing him!)

Ken's commitment to positive thinking is legendary. He will always be boxing's ambassador for Napoleon Hill that Arguello likewise is for Dale Carnegie. But, five years and 13 bouts had removed him from the reality of what it was to get hit with Foremanesque power, and then, it wasn't a Hiroshima "Little Boy" bomb which incinerated him, but the 50 megaton Tsar Bomba of punchers. (In Shavers II, Holmes got up from the Tsar Bomba itself, according to Earnie.) When confronted with massive power, Ken had more of a glass mind than a glass jaw. A Shavers hook was the initial stunner, but it was actually a right to the body which sent him tumbling to the deck the first time and essentially ruined him. (Interestingly, it was later a Cooney right which initially stunned Norton, although Gerry's follow-up hooks to the body did Ken no favors either.)

 

Doudenum - thanks for YOUR reply too!:good

A lot of interesting stuff there, some of it new to me...the references to the Globetrotters & Brookshier, perhaps some of this stuff never made its way across the pond at the time?...No surprise to me that Kenny exercised more caution than Smoke with regards to Foreman...Smoke being as brave as any man whoever stepped into a ring!

But was he FORCED to take on Shavers? If so, by whom, maybe I'm not absorbing this in your reply? Kenny would also have been aware f the cliche that the last thing a fighter loses is his punch...

However, I must say, I don't believe (just my opinion mind you!) the Norton would have been wary of fighting Cleve in '72, Foster, Knoetze, Coetzee, Mercado. Lyle possibly (especially after the Foreman-Lyle war).

On the other hand, Norton worked a lot with Frazier, beat (an admittedly sliding) Quarry, rematched a slid (!) Garcia, and fought Holmes, an underrated puncher for me...28-0 with 20 kos come June 9 '78.

Mind you, I must concede you have a point with regarding matches made for Norton.

 

you manage to bring Ali up. Ali was never ever prime against norton. and he best norton way more clearer then Holmes did the second time.

 

There have been some clips of Norton getting ribbed about Foreman on youtube, both after bouts he competed in and while broadcasting himself. Brookshier actually worked for CBS, so I'm probably recalling a specific tease of Norton after one of Ken's bouts on that network. I do know he took some grief also while announcing on NBC, and not just about Foreman. (Dokes used to kiss roses and throw them to women as a tribute to his mother, ironic considering what he was locked up for. Norton was asked why he never did that, silly types of things to make him laugh. As an analyst though, he made an unsolicited prediction prior to Jerry Martin-James Scott that Martin would pull off the upset. He definitely had some good moments behind the microphone.) He was an easy going gentleman, and it says something about his temperament that he could be picked on and kidded with like this.

If you were watching television in the States during the 1970s, the Harlem Globetrotters were a prominent staple of weekend sports programming. Headlined by Meadowlark Lemon and Curly Neal, they even made their way into cartoon animation (as did Ali), and thus were very much in the mainstream of American culture. Nobody who followed sports in the mid to late 1970s could have missed the resemblance between Neal and Shavers.

Well, he didn't need to be forced, not perceiving the risk he might have been far more aware of a few years earlier. Those who thought he should have gotten the decision over Holmes believed he was the best heavyweight in the world, and could defeat anybody else competing. He himself was convinced of this.

If he thought the likelihood that he would lose such a match was high though, he couldn't very well evade Shavers and betray such a lack of confidence. With the split between the WBC and WBA, there were few other credible contenders he could take on to sell himself for a rematch with Holmes. They were the two biggest names in WBC contention, the most familiar faces to the public available to square off for their version of that title. He was expected to win. To evade an opponent he was favored over would have meant retirement.

We can merely concede that there was no deliberate avoidance. Minefields can be walked across successfully without the aid of a map. There are interesting bouts which never took place, and a clear void in Norton's resume with respect to defeating top notch sluggers. The matter deserves some contemplation.

 

Sure, but he would have become the lineal sucessor to John L Sullivan.

When you looked at the list of lineal champions, you would see various names, who are thought to be among the weakest lineal champions, but still imortalised forever.

Norton's name could, and perhaps should have been on that list!

 

Well, Norton himself thinks that this very principle should have been used to give him the victory over Holmes. He reckons that since the fight was close and he was the champ he should have gotten the win. That would have been every bit as controversial as his own loss to Ali imo.

 

I agree, norton did not beat the best ali. the one time he beat ali it wasnt any clearer for ken than the 3rd fight was for ali. the most decisive of the 3 fights was the second fight but again it was still closer than the holmes norton fight. ken wasnt easy for holmes either. If you watch that fight apart from the 3 rounds where they brawled taking turns to stagger one another holmes was in control, he was never on the ropes, his jab contained norton in all of the quieter rounds. ali always struggled to keep ken off him and was outjabed by ken in the first fight. larry did beter with ken because he was at his peak.