Ken Norton: "my normal weight is 225-230 and i train down to 206"

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Feb 13, 2019.



  1. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    I can be an aggravating dude :nusenuse:
     
  2. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's fine I don't hate you or anything like that it's not that deep it's just a personality clash it happens all good.
     
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  3. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He's big enough and has power, so I don't see why it matters that much
     
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  4. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    There's no 'partly' about this particular circumstance really.

    If Norton is as strong when weighing in at 205 as he is at a hypothetical 230, then his weight has nothing to do with how he'd cope with a c. 265lb Fury. If, on the other hand, Norton is indeed made weaker by training down to 205 then, of course, it is a factor. But there's no evidence to suggest Norton was weak at 205.

    (In a slightly different slant, one might float the notion that Norton's extra poundage could have an effect on Fury - but to what extent and at what cost to Norton's mobility, speed, and stamina, etc?)

    There's also a fair bit of assumption in the suggestion that, by dropping down to 205, Norton was losing 'functional weight'.

    205 Norton was able to go 12-rounds with Ali and split the cards (with some believing Norton deserved the nod). This doesn't seem to indicate he had inadvertently engaged in self-sabotage. Norton's endurance, cardiovascular health, flexibility, and stamina seemed to be tip-top during his second bout with Ali - and this was probably the more physical bout.


    Weight does not equate to size. Nor does it equate to strength.
     
  5. Barrf

    Barrf Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'm pretty sure all Usyk did to move from CW to HW was to stop that before-fight shred cycle (and not dehydrate of course). He fights at ~225, and it looks like that's his walk around weight. Was probably always his walk around weight.

    He'd probably lean out to 210-215 or so prior to a fight, then dehydrate down to 200 to make weight. Now he just doesn't do any of that. Probably makes camp a hell of a lot less miserable when you can actually eat. Some of these guys must go through absolute misery in camp -- I'm thinking of Hamzah Sheeraz, recalling reading how he can only eat one meal a day in camp to make weight. Dieting down is one thing. Doing it while busting absolute ass in training is an entirely different thing.
     
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  6. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Eh, not really. Weight in combat sports also makes you harder to push around, and has other benefits. There's a difference between fighting a small guy with a 500 pound deadlift, and a 6'4" guy with the same. Mosley could bench and squat more than some heavyweights; that doesn't make him one.

    Weight, size, and strength are all strongly correlated for athletes in every major combat sport. Weight, size and strength are also strongly correlated in strength sports. So a person claiming that removing 10-15 pounds from Norton wouldn't weaken him, especially when he apparently had to starve himself to even get there, bears the burden of proof, IMO.

    As far as functional weight goes: Even the people supporting Norton here are arguing that he didn't lose any stamina or other useful qualities at a heavier weight. And he was always very lean and muscular. So yes, chopping him down to 205 is removing functional weight, viz muscle. Perhaps even more muscle than usual since he was starving himself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2024 at 12:01 PM
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  7. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    A lot of these old timers were mammoths out of the ring, Sullivan and Jeffries often scaling over 250. Fitzsimmons was 202 pounds when he went on an exhibition tour with Jeffries in 1902-03. Even Corbett looked pretty huge out of camp, all of these guys including Ali, Norton, etc would likely be bigger under modern rules. Especially if roids allow them to maintain cardio and speed at that size.
     
  8. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I disagree.

    Usyk is reported as being 207lbs on fight night at CW.

    Zurdo has been reported as 204lbs on fight night at LHW. That 29lbs weight gain is an extreme and uncommon example, but demonstrates a fighter being 7lbs heavier on fight night relative to weigh in is not indicative of an extreme weight cut.

    I'm typically 3lbs heavier at night than in the morning. Usyk would have been taking in calories on fight day ahead of the fight and, unlike his body had become accustomed to during training, not burning them off. I suspect c.200lbs is his morning weight when in natural fighting shape.

    Usyk's clearly added muscle to get 220lbs. I suspect that when he retires, he will start to look smaller, as Holyfield, Moorer and Haye did post retirement.

    Whereas HWs pre 70s typically look bigger post retirement, which was kind of the crux of the OP in this thread.
     
  9. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    I wonder how a 230 pound Norton’s functional strength would compares to 230 pound Wilder’s functional strength in the last 2 Fury fights. That is still a 40 pound weight difference between them and Fury, and it seemed to have great effects.
     
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  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Yeah, I think if he had the option today, he'd bulk up against Fury.
     
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  11. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I actually touched on this perspective in the post to which you're replying.


    I agree. But you explicitly stated: "the bigger issue is, if [Norton is] 205 for Fury... ... there's a guy leaning on him and punching him who's ~60 pounds heavier."

    All I've implied, by way of a question, is that, if there's no difference in strength between a 205 Norton and a 230 Norton, then the impact of Fury's leaning on Norton is largely immaterial. He's bearing the weight of Fury, either way.


    I've not said otherwise. But correlation is not equation.

    Moreover, while weight, size, and strength can correlate, they are not the only factors determining a boxer's effectiveness, especially in a long bout. Norton's lower weight at 205 lbs did not seem to hinder his ability to go the distance with Muhammad Ali in their first rematch, maintaining a high level of performance throughout.


    That's a fair-ish point. Rapid or extreme weight cuts can sometimes weaken athletes by reducing muscle mass, draining energy, or impacting hydration levels. However, the burden of proof? That can go both ways, Chap. Especially since the effects of weight loss on performance vary widely based on the individual and their conditioning.

    In reality, I'm not sure there is any proof, either way, but Ali/Norton II is evidence enough for me that Norton was not weakened by hitting the scales at 205.


    That's an understandable viewpoint. Norton performing well at a heavier weight might imply that the additional pounds contributed to his effectiveness. However, functional weight in boxing isn't just about what a fighter can carry and still perform with; it's also about optimizing their balance of power, speed, endurance, and stamina for peak performance.

    When Norton fought at 205 lbs, he still demonstrated his core strengths against Ali, going 12 rounds with no apparent sacrifice to his stamina or power. This suggests that the pounds he cut didn't detract from his functionality in the ring. While his higher weight could also be 'functional' in terms of strength, the performance at 205 suggest he was close to if not right at his optimal balance of weight and agility that supported his style and endurance needs for the fight at hand.

    As for Norton 'starving himself', there's some assumption there. It's common for boxers to restrict calories strategically, but Norton's performance at 205 suggests he didn't sacrifice critical stamina or endurance. In other words, while he was lean and muscular, the weight he dropped might not have reduced his functional capabilities. Norton had 6 months to achieve whatever weight he felt he needed to, so there was no rush for him to make a specific weight.

    The fact that he remained competitive with Ali, having weighed in at a lower weight, is strong evidence that he maintained his functional qualities, indicating that what he lost wasn't necessarily all functional weight. I also think people are taking the use of the word "starving" a little to literally for dramatic effect.

    Back on the matter of the burden of proof... ...How much weight in muscle do you think Norton lost exactly?
     
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    BOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!
     
  13. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    When I said he was going to get leaned on and punched, I was including the sorts of mauling, grappling, and other stuff you're going to face in a boxing match.

    It's not like Fury is walking up to an unresisting Norton, who stands there and lets Fury hang from his neck like a straight legged deadlift. Under those circumstances, yes, it wouldn't make a difference whether Norton is 205 or 230, as long as Norton can bear the weight. But fighting for position, shoving, grappling, etc. doesn't work like that, as you know. Raw weight is helpful in more realistic grappling scenarios. Also pretty useful when you're punching a guy and you've got more pounds set in motion behind your shot.

    But it sounds like we both agree that extra weight helps in and of itself in the clinch, and in boxing more broadly. If our difference is only semantic, let me know.





    Nobody said size, strength, and weight are identical qualities to each other.

    We weren't talking about Norton's broader effectiveness against Ali, though. We were talking about strength for dealing with Fury, especially in clinches.

    As far as stamina goes, Norton was 5 pounds bigger in fight 1 (which he won), about 10 pounds bigger in fight 2 (which many think he should have won.)

    I don't recall Norton being accused of having worse stamina in those, but I can check the Compubox stats if you like. So the extra weight didn't impair his performance in a long bout.

    Burden of proof for whether he's as strong -- or stronger -- at 205 would still be on you, though. That's the issue. Not how effective he was against Ali at 205.

    Unless you're just adding lard, or you're overtaxing your body by adding slabs of muscle your stamina can't support, adding 10 or more pounds of lean weight is going to make you stronger. Eating well, and hydrating well, is also going to. That's why weight classes exist in combat and strength sports. Norton was cutting his weight down, apparently drying himself out, and his stamina wasn't noticeably better at 205 than 215. So there's no reason to believe he would have been as strong at 205.

    If Norton is an exception, you're welcome to present evidence of that. But the general rule is that dehydration, calorie restriction, and losing lean weight generally have a negative effect on strength. I don't think Norton's performance against Ali overcomes that.



    Sounds like we agree.

    Against Ali -- a much lighter, smaller opponent than Fury -- weighing 205 probably didn't detract much from Norton's fight plan.

    Might have even helped, if it made him a little faster. Which is why some boxers choose to come in lighter, supposedly.

    It sounds like we'd probably agree that he'd choose to come in heavier against Fury, too, since that's a common thing to do against bigger opponents. It wouldn't make sense to whittle yourself down to 205 for a yeti.

    Norton ate less than he needed to support his current weight. He was restricting his diet enough that he was described as starving himself. Seems pretty straightforward.

    I doubt we'd know that without modern measurement tools. It isn't necessary to make the point, though.

    He looked lean at 205. He looked lean at 215/220. The latter Norton was a bigger Norton, and the weight gain wasn't useless lard.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2024 at 4:54 PM
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  14. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Agreed!

    The true equivalence is to modern cruiserweights, who do intentionally train down to a weight. And are a similar size to 206 pound Norton.

    :afro:
     
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  15. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I think if Norton was a stopping point where fighters are big enough, we wouldn't see them still getting bigger.

    Once upon a time, some very reasonable forum mavens (I'm saying this genuinely; they weren't stupid) fixed that magic size at 6'3", 210. That size was supposedly big enough to fight anybody. But fighters kept growing way beyond that. Usyk is even a little bigger than that (not much), and he is specifically a mobile slick guy playing keep-away.
     
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