Ken Norton vs Larry Holmes Who won?scorecards!

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ideafix12, Dec 25, 2014.


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  1. ideafix12

    ideafix12 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    A few seconds ago i saw this AMAZING fight for first time.
    Round 15 is hilarious.I scored it a draw 143 even.

    round 1 holmes
    round 2 holmes
    round 3 norton
    round 4 holmes
    round 5 norton
    round 6 holmes
    round 7 norton
    round 8 norton
    round 9 norton
    round 10 holmes
    round 11 norton
    round 12 draw
    round 13 holmes
    round 14 norton
    round 15 holmes
     
    ideafix12, Dec 25, 2014
    ideafix12, Dec 25, 2014
    #1
  2. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I always felt Holmes won clearly. Haven't scored it in forever but it didn't come down to the 15th round for me. Think I had it for Holmes like 9-6.
     
    The Long Count, Dec 25, 2014
    The Long Count, Dec 25, 2014
    #2
    Rumsfeld and Saintpat like this.
  3. energie

    energie Boxing Addict Full Member

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    i had it 144 to 142
     
    energie, Dec 25, 2014
    energie, Dec 25, 2014
    #3
  4. timmers612

    timmers612 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I watched this bout live at the time and had Larry winning the last round and the bout with it.
     
    timmers612, Dec 26, 2014
    timmers612, Dec 26, 2014
    #4
  5. Titan1

    Titan1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Holmes edged Norton 143-142.But looking at it, a lot of those rounds were very close, and in truth, You could have given Ken the last round, he won the majority of it.I'm going to look at it good again real soon.
     
    Titan1, Jan 2, 2015
    Titan1, Jan 2, 2015
    #5
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I had Holmes taking the first five rounds on the stiff jab and general class. He just looks the superior fighter across the board. What's interesting is that as a precision instrument, when he starts to tire - and both these guys are tired at the end of fifth based upon a medium-hot pace made all the more difficult by the persisting, stalking Norton style - he suffers more from fatigue than Norton. Larry is straight-backed in essence but graceful and supple with this. Norton is more lurching, untidy, a looping overhand right and a less concise jab happily defined by the shifting Norton stance/hand positioning. Because he's a much rougher tool, when he starts to flag it doesn't affect his style. Meanwhile Holmes, who never looked faster than in these first five rounds, starts to fall a fraction behind in pulling his head back and getting his hands up. Norton is physically just as affected by the pace and style of the fight but it stranslates differently because of his rougher style.

    What this means in practice is that after banking the first five on my card, Norton goes on his own little run, taking 6-11 on my card. Lots of these rounds - 7,8,10 - were really really close in my opinion. The seventh for example would be scored even by many but I thought that Norton shaved it on aggression and general hustle.

    In the ninth, when Norton found his right hand range in earnest, things look pretty bad for Holmes who does almost nothing in the 10th, giving the round away by default. The first really close round that went to Larry on my card rather than Ken was the 12th which I scored for Holmes. In the 13th the Easton Assassin spent his reserves on as destructive a round ever seen at HW that did not produce a KD and could arguably be scored 10-8 but it left Larry with almost nothing, and he gift-wrapped the 14th before rallying in that infamous 15th - a round I thought Norton also shaded despite the horrible destruction reigned down upon the champ in the last 20 seconds. This gave me:

    NORTON: 6,7,8,9,10,11,14,15
    HOMLES: 1,2,3,4,5,12,13*

    So I have it to Norton. I don't say he won, however, for a few reasons, mostly that this is a very close fight and you can score it either way reasonably, not least because of all the close rounds - 3/4 of which went to Norton on my card. Reverse that ration (and you could do so) and Holmes is ahead on my card. Furthermore, whilst i'm very very conservative about it I do really think you could make 13 a 10-8 round which makes this a draw on my card.

    Certainly no definitive winner in this scorcher.
     
    McGrain, Jan 2, 2015
    McGrain, Jan 2, 2015
    #6
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  7. FastHands(beeb)

    FastHands(beeb) Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Imo this is the best and fairest assessment I have seen of this great fight that I have seen on ESB.

    Kudos, Matt.
     
    FastHands(beeb), Jan 2, 2015
    FastHands(beeb), Jan 2, 2015
    #7
    McGrain likes this.
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Cheers dude.
     
    McGrain, Jan 2, 2015
    McGrain, Jan 2, 2015
    #8
  9. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It was a fight that could have gone to either man, I personally liked the way Holmes closed it and thus wanted him to win but like McGrain said "Norton could have won it.
     
    Bummy Davis, Jan 2, 2015
    Bummy Davis, Jan 2, 2015
    #9
  10. FastHands(beeb)

    FastHands(beeb) Well-Known Member Full Member

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    A pleasure Matt. It's the sort of post I originally joined ESB to read. It seems that these days posts of this type are less common than they used to be - too many Liston-Foreman-Tyson di*ck measuring "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" kind of threads nowadays.

    Back to Holmes-Norton; it's quite possibly my favourite fight - round 15 is the round in boxing history I watch most of all, but for me there's an irony here that many scored round 15 of this fight for Holmes when he only won the last 25-30 seconds of the round, whereas in Ali-Norton 3 many gave the 15th round to Ali because Norton ONLY won the last 25-30 seconds of that round...go figure...

    Typical Norton bad luck imo...
     
    FastHands(beeb), Jan 2, 2015
    FastHands(beeb), Jan 2, 2015
    #10
  11. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Round 1 Holmes
    Round 2 Holmes
    Round 3 Holmes
    Round 4 Holmes
    Round 5 Even
    Round 6 Holmes
    Round 7 Norton
    Round 8 Norton
    Round 9 Holmes
    Round 10 Norton
    Round 11 Norton
    Round 12 Norton
    Round 13 Holmes
    Round 14 Norton
    Round 15 Holmes

    144-142 for Holmes
     
    BitPlayerVesti, Feb 4, 2020
    BitPlayerVesti, Feb 4, 2020
    #11
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    10-5ish Holmes.
     
    George Crowcroft, Feb 4, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Feb 4, 2020
    #12
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  13. THE BLADE 2

    THE BLADE 2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    glad that you are not a judge
     
    THE BLADE 2, Feb 4, 2020
    THE BLADE 2, Feb 4, 2020
    #13
  14. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    George, have you scored this one? I only ask because I watched this without scoring it and my overall impression was that Holmes won the fight and won it clearly enough in my view to not be that close or controversial. Then when I did score it in the FOTW thread I was surprised by how close I had it - 143-142 to Holmes, I think - which backed up my view that Holmes was the rightful winner, but did surprise me that it was as close as it was. And I scored round 15 to Holmes both times, so depending on how you view that final round could make all the difference on the scorecards (see the comments of Matt McGrain and Fast Hands for alternative views on that round).
     
    Jel, Feb 4, 2020
    Jel, Feb 4, 2020
    #14
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  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Yup. Last time I scored it was for my Holmes the Thread. I've had it similar to this every time I've watched it

    Rd. Holmes : Norton
    1. 10 : 9
    2. 10 : 9
    3. 10 : 9
    4. 10 : 9
    5. 9 : 10 (49-46)
    6. 10 : 9
    7. 9 : 10
    8. 10 : 10
    9. 10 : 9
    10. 9 : 10 (97-94)
    11. 9 : 10
    12. 10 : 9
    13. 10 : 9
    14. 9 : 10
    15. 10 : 9 (145-141)

    I haven't scored in a good few months so I can't tell you details on why they won the rounds they did but my general view of it was that Holmes' feet were on another level and let him shut Norton down. Also, his jab. Norton won when he tagged Holmes enough, and not much more imo.
    Why? Coz you don't agree with my card? How did you have it?

    I had it 2 points wider than the official judges... Too much for ya?
     
    George Crowcroft, Feb 5, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Feb 5, 2020
    #15
    Pat M likes this.
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