Ken Norton vs Max Baer

Footage can be a double edged sword.

 

Baer's edge is rather blunt I fear

 

Perusing this thread nearly a year later, nobody is noting how carefully Norton was cherry picked through the slugger minefield of the 1970's (to the eternal credit of his management, which preserved Ken's reputation as good management should do).

He doesn't have the power to hurt Maxie. The Larruper has the power to kill him. And Norton gasses first if Maxie decides to play Baercat to Kenny the Mouse.

Ron Lyle destroys Norton, but Ken steered clear of him.

A lot's been said here about Braddock, Max Baer and Norton's size.

Let's not forget that Ken was destroyed by skinny 6'4" 188 pound Joes Luis Garcia in 1970 when he was ONE MONTH SHORT OF TURNING 27 and weighed 207 pounds (two pounds more than he'd weigh for Ali II three years later).

Later that year, Norton's friend and stablemate sparring partner Frazier began the opening round with caution against the 6'3" 188 pound decorated veteran Bob Foster because of Garcia-Norton I, before getting down to business and wiping Bob out, which he should have done in the opening round as quickly as he had Ziggy. (Yes, I acknowledge there's some dispute about the weight scale for Frazier-BF, that Bob may not have weighed that much, and he did come in at an official 180 two years later for Ali.)

If there's one noted HW Bob Foster could have wiped out in 1970, it would've been Norton. And the other Foster of the early 1970's, the durable and deadly punching MacArthur Foster would've revived his career in 1973 or 1974 at Ken's expense. After Garcia-Norton I, a bout with Mac at any time from 1970 to 1973 would've ended Ken's career.

Mac Foster, Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers are three dominant wins by Jerry Quarry which no version of Norton (including the one who peaked against a hopelessly shot and criminally undertrained JQ himself) would've had any chance of surviving for long.

People keep talking about "size." JQ was 196 for Mac, 200 for Lyle and 202 for Shavers, actually walking through Earnie's punches without even knowing he'd been hit! Ken always knew when he was being hit. He didn't think Ali could hurt him after their first bout, then was knocked silly in their second fight.

Jimmy Braddock never took a backwards step against Louis, and more than held his own through the first four rounds. The Bomber had to move around and outmaneuver the fearless, utterly unintimidated Braddock. Louis later said, "Only Max Baer could hit harder than Jimmy Braddock."

Gene Tunney rated the three hardest punches of the first half of the century to be:

1) The first hook Dempsey floored Willard with.

2) The first straight right Max Baer drove through to drop Carnera and fracture Primo's right angle with. (Every time I watch that punch shoot through, I hear the sound of a bowling alley strike.)

3) The right cross Louis knocked out Braddock with.

Jerry Quarry detailed for Tom Brookshier and the CBS television audience at the outset of Norton-Middleton precisely how and why Ken's punches looked a lot harder than they actually were, and JQ had been on the receiving end of the hardest shot Norton himself said he ever landed.

Yes. Jimmy Braddock could hurt Ken Norton. No, I do not believe Ken Norton could have hurt Jimmy Braddock. I do believe the unorthodox Kenny should've won a decision over Braddock, but via skill, not toughness. And mentally, James J. Braddock was steel. He was reported as going out for Louis utterly unafraid. He was The Boss, and he sure started out like it before his well known arthritis began taking a toll on him after four rounds. (He retired after Farr because he said that arthritis was impeding his ability to move backwards. Again, it bears repeating that all the forward steps in Louis-Braddock were Braddock's. Check the complete film.)


Was Max Baer utterly without skill? Watch him exchange heavy jabs with Schmeling in the tenth round, the jabs Loughran tutored him in as a surprised personal coach after schooling him in the ring. Watch him quickly skip backwards with frequency against Carnera.

Maxie would've killed the gassy Foreman. He'd quickly retreat, then blast the wide open George. Foreman was far too open a huge target to prevail in this one. His face would be a swollen mess, he was slower, didn't have a minute fraction of the Larruper's stamina, and Maxie had a crazed unpredictability George couldn't adapt to.

He slowly retreats into a corner, then suddenly ducks and slings his overhand right to destroy the durable Pat Comiskey. And watch how he nearly decks Galento, by ducking the 5'9" Two Ton's hook from within a neutral corner, then coming over the top with his overhand right as he slides to his right and out of that corner. Yeah, Foreman will cut the ring off on Maxie, the Larruper will let him, then make him pay dearly for it. I'd have loved to see Maxie ruin George in whatever way. Does he take Foreman deep like he did King Levinski twice, or does he unload early on George like Lyle did and Maxie himself did in his third meeting with the Kingfish, that "exhibition" where he hooked that provoking jerk into Sandman land.


Rationalizing a win for Norton over Max Baer takes some doing. Maxie hurt opponents by accident. Then there was the Kingfish exhibition. And if you look closely at the Louis footage, all his best shots on the Bomber were actually with the left hook from his undamaged hand, not his more vaunted right.

 

It’s a reasonable debate (characterised, of course, by people screaming at one another that one of these guys does it 100/100 against the other).

I slightly favour Baer.