Ken Norton's Chin

I have a hard time believing Ali won that third fight (even he admitted he lost). In fact, the second fight was maybe one (at the most two) points ahead of Norton. Just my opinion.

All respect, but if you ever get around to it I'd love to see your scorecard on Norton-Ali III. I have Norton ahead by three points.

 

Good points, but I think Quarry qualifies as a big puncher (not just because of the first round ko of Shavers). Granted, Jerry was somewhat past it (not sure on Quarry's mileage at that point, forgive me if I'm mistaken). Norton ended up walking through him.

 

Very interesting beliefs. I think Ken might have taken an agreeable decision against the Holmes he fought in 78, but I see even prime Ken getting stopped in 11 against the harder punching Holmes that beat Ali. I don't think Ken could have taken that much of the more aggressive Holmes, and would have ended up on his back foot a lot. Just me.

Oh yeah, he would have cold cocked Earnie, as much as I love him.

Yes, Foreman was amazing at forcing him back. I wonder what 90s Foreman...how he'd have fared. A prime Norton against Foreman might have been far more interesting than we'd at first think imo.

Here we disagree as well, my friend. If Quarry blasted Earnie out in 1...

 

Eh? What year did Jack Cohen die?

Norton was just a few months from his 38th birthday. I think this might have had something to do with his retirement. The destruction at the hands of Cooney would have, of course, helped make the decision.

He did. I somewhat think of it as Norton's 'Last Hurrah'.
Shavers hit too hard for almost everyone.
Norton's effort against Scott Ledoux, several months after Shavers, was abysmal.

Shavers knocked Lyle down, nearing the end of Round 2. Shavers didn't get a chance to finish him off, after the Ref's count. The bell rang to end the round, before Shavers could resume his attack.

Had there been 'in-play' betting, with a minute to go in that round, I'd have been stacking a ton on Shavers winning by KO (Although, I'd have probably have been too late getting the bet on).

Lyle did fight off the ropes, in subsequent rounds, but I recall Shavers needing to do the same, at times, and I'm absolutely positive that the fight-ending punch, from Lyle, was thrown from center-ring.

Round 2 was fought almost exclusively at ring-center, with Lyle fighting from behind his jab and circling to his left.

Anything is possible. But, I don't think Norton always loses to Shavers. Norton was the better boxer, by some margin.

Shavers did what he had to, against an old and tired fighter, at the end of the road. Shavers was there to be out-boxed, and could have been by a younger Norton.

That Norton produced the goods against Holmes is an impressive individual performance. However, it is oft forgotten that Norton started late in that fight and needed to build momentum. In any event, he never again mustered anything close to that kind of form - and the talk was that age was a factor for him (and this, when he was telling people he was 32).

In reality, it is no surprise Norton suddenly faded, as he was nearing 35 years old, at the point he faced Holmes; a bout that must have taken the last of him. His speed and timing were not the same after that - even against unranked and relative novice Stephens, who elected to trade with Norton and was essentially out-muscled, outclassed and outgunned, in under three rounds.

A late bloomer Norton might have been, but his peak year has to have been '73 for my money.

Five years later, after two more battles with Ali; a shellacking at the hands of Foreman; a tough outing against Young, before taking the much fresher Holmes to an SD...

...I'd say '73 Norton is in with a great chance.

 

Quarry took the fight short notice and wasn't in very good shape(very soft looking), I also wouldn't call him a big puncher. Quarry was more of a true grinder, who wore his opponents down with body punches and accurate combinations, still didn't manage that many stoppages.

 

• Norton announced his retirement following the death of his manager, [url]Bob Biron[/url], in September, saying, "I can't go on without Bob." Norton returned to the ring in 1980. "I wasn't happy with the way I retired," he said. Norton retired for good after getting knocked out in one round by [url]Gerry Cooney[/url] in 1981.

I think that is all fair. Objectively, his career did spiral after Holmes. I just feel the loss to Shavers was the actual tipping point..a cause more so than a symptom, that had to be a huge setback.

My memory failed me here. Absolutely correct. And yes, Lyle was badly hurt.

I just re-watched it. Rounds 2 and 3 were blurred in my memory. Round 3 is where Lyle hurt Shavers with counters off the ropes.

To be fair, Shavers was not at his physical peak either and while he fought on longer than Norton, he was in awful shape and half blind, and probably should have retired after his 79 loss to Holmes. He is losing to Mercado and Cobb after that. At least Norton gutted a draw with a fringe contender.

If there was evidence of Norton in his youth, out boxing a slugger I would certainly have stronger faith in him in this match up. Shavers was always there to be took out or out-boxed, Norton had no answer for those body punchers and folded fast. He backed himself into a corner and didn't give Shavers anything to worry about.

 

Norton blasted out Bobick in 77. He looked calm, stood his ground and bombed that right hand fearlessly early. Bobick was the one who looked intimidated.

Against Shavers, he looks to have far more nervous energy, and backs up and goes into his shell the moment Shavers puts some jabs together. Does Norton even throw a right hand in this fight?

I think instead of counting birth days and career fights in a meeting between two aged warriors, just look at the film and read Norton's body language. It's all you need to know. Norton couldn't have beat Shavers that way if he was 32 or 27.

Quarry bossed Shavers, took the fight right at him. Norton only showed that guile against fighters he knew couldn't hurt him or in the case of Bobick, looked intimidated.

 

Ah - My turn for a memory lapse. Norton was indeed co-managed.

Fair enough. I'd have to say otherwise, i.e. a symptom rather than the cause, because I don't really think of Shavers as being in the kind of class to walk through a prime Norton.

Just my opinion.

I'd agree that Shavers too was not at his peak when he faced Norton - but he still carried that essential power, as evidenced in later bouts, which was enough to topple the old warhorse.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on what we think might have happened had their contest occurred during the time of Norton's prime. Had Norton somehow turned out a redeeming performance, following the loss to Shavers, I might have been inclined to think otherwise. Alas, it never happened.

 

Simple truth is he wilted against power punchers. Did not have the chin or skills to deal with them and he knew it.

 

I don't think his chin was that bad. It wasn't great, and it could fail him against top level punchers, but generally I think he had a better chin than he's given credit for.

 

It was Foreman who used the angles against Frazier. Go back and watch the first fight. Great fight plan by Foreman's team.

 

Young Foreman had underrated defense. He was great at using angles and catching punches. He trained with Dick and Sandy Saddler. He was a gold medalist.

 

Quarry was the worlds oldest 29 year old in that fight. He was more physically a 39 year old, due to all the viscous sparring sessions, rounds fought, punishment absorbed. Add in that that might been Norton's best fight, great fight plan, tremendous use of the jab.

 

I think Quarry as a counter puncher was always wrong for Norton, but no denying he was in awful shape for this fight on short notice, also all the substance abuse, and punishment that would lead to his health issues.

 

I had the third fight come down to the last round which Norton's corner told him to just stay away from Ali, take it easy, and not get caught which turned out to be absolutely terrible advice. Ali controlled the first 2.5 minutes of the round. I can't see how anyone gave it to Norton. I also thought Ali, won clearly in the second fight.