Kenny Norton Against Marciano? Anyone See Rocky Losing?

I wish Marciano had come along a few years later than he did. It would have been good to see him fight a Cleveland Williams or even Sonny Liston. While the results of the fight (especially in the case of Williams) wouldn't tell us if he would beat Lewis, it would give us a glimpse into how Rocky could possibly perform. One thing Rocky had going for him is he definitely hit harder than Muhammad Ali and Ali hit hard enough to hurt Liston and Williams. And if the 2nd Ali/Liston fight is to be believed, he hit hard enough to floor Liston.

By the way, I favor Liston over Marciano. I do think Liston stops Rocky. At least the 58-62 version of Liston.

 

Yeah I think Norton would give Marciano all he could handle for a while, but eventually gets KOd. Kenny might score a knockdown along the way but I doubt it.

 

I should also add that, like you, I have the utmost respect for Marciano. Not least for the facts that he always entered the ring in acutely great shape and gave it his all.

 

Boomer heavyweight? That's new, and if "modern training" = PEDs I get what you are saying.
I do suspect that certain fighters' abilities have been exaggerated to make RM's record look better. Most of his record was compiled on the NE club circuit and then he fought some other fighters that were better, like Charles,Walcott, and Moore. I haven't seen enough video of those fighters prior to fighting RM to have an opinion on them. Since I can't talk to RM's opponents or sparring partners, video is all I have to go on and I just don't find RM impressive on video.

 

Norton looks juiced IMO

 

Norton was actually an excellent fighter. It generally took a physically imposing fighter to force him to fight off the back leg and not just someone who simply hit hard. I think his sparring sessions with Joe Frazier might also prove useful against a somewhat similar fighter in Marciano. Ken was 6’3” and a sculpted 210 when in his prime. He wasn’t a power puncher by any means but he could certainly crack, box well and go 15 rounds. His chin wasn’t the greatest but he didn’t exactly crumble with only one punch. And most of the men who stopped him were some of the hardest hitters in history ( two of them when Ken was passed it. ) a 37 year old Joe Louis on the comeback trail gave Rocky 8 competitive rounds. I think a prime Norton might do that or better

 

Re: Boomer heavyweights, I'm beginning to think that there was something (aside from being the first generation with possible access to PEDs) that made the generation of heavyweights born in the 1940s different. They are larger, more athletic men, and some of it might be the fact that they grew up with relatively good healthcare, a good diet, etc. in the WW2 and post WW2 world.

The US ones, at least. The Europeans faced a lot more privation in the early/mid 40s, and -- as one might expect -- their fighters seem smaller than the Americans. Though I'd have to confirm this by looking in detail.

EDIT: Since you think you haven't seen enough video of Moore, Charles, and Walcott before Marciano to form an opinion, perhaps the best course would be to watch those guys' other fights?

 

Correct. The opponents Rocky beat did look better on film because, at least in terms of skill, they were - not to denigrate Marciano's own skillset, which has been underrated at times, but a skill set that should not be overstated at the same time. That can then perhaps lead us to conclude that Marciano's persistence, quality of chin (relative to the opposition's power), sheer will to win, and heart primarily brought him up to par and then some.

A number of those fights were no walks in the park at all - it was Rocky at full stretch. I think some of the more desperate moments during some of Rocky's fights might be over-looked since fans became accustomed to him overcoming those moments at each and every turn against the opposition before him.

Even Rocky's last fight vs old LH Moore was a brutal affair for Marciano, and aside from the obvious hurt caused by the KD, I think Rocky was stunned/hurt on a number of other occasions during that fight.

While completely admirable, how far could Rocky take the aforementioned intangibles against bigger, some arguably better and more powerful opposition? Given how much Marciano was heavily taxed during his actual career, I don't know that there is much room left for extrapolating him into greater success than he actually did achieve.

 

Hi Buddy.
Neat and sensible appraisal of Marciano and some intangibles, standard from your pen, of all the fights and fighters that have been written about since I crept in round the back door of the forum Marciano has without doubt been the most divisive ,by a country mile .
There are diehards in both camps, one being he is a great fighter, and deserving of a top 6/7 ranking, the other, he does not, they see him as being right place right time, Louis was old and spent ( albeit he troubled Rocky ) the others were just past it and beating them was no great feat, my personal and honest assessment of him is with the first group, he was a truly formidable fighter, fearless, courageous, and with a indomitable will to win, which I see as the most salient of all, do I believe he would have the beating of Lewis, no, or Foreman, or Holmes, but he will not countenance that, he would have trained like a spartan up in the catskills, him and Goldman locked in the makeshift gym, long hours and days of grind, sweat and toil, honing him into fighter that is utterly dismissive of defeat, but, the real big quality champs would beat him, sadly the goliaths would prevail, there is no biblical ending for Rocky, but can you imagine our sport without him, I can't.......
stay safe Pugguy.

 

From what I've read the Garcia KO was before Norton implemented the cross guard, and was a hardcore pressure fighter, of course after the Garcia loss that's when he implemented his new style.

 

Great post Mike. We can be objective without rose tint but maintain and afford credit and respect where and when it is due.

Those intangibles that Rocky demonstrated are the most cherished in boxing, heart, conditioning, will etc. And arguably, Rocky perhaps possessed those traits more than any other fighter or ,at the very least he resides among the very best in those regards.

 

Thanks, excellent point. Interesting that Ken still got shook a few times in the rematch but ultimately took the punches quite well. The rematch is actually a very entertaining stoush and you could see that Garcia had some decent clout in his punches. Never seen the first match - is it out there somewhere?

 

Questionable.

 

Dude, Marciano had hands of stones, a heart of a lion and an uncommon style.

 

Unquestionable.