Kessler could become a better fighter than Calzaghe

Andrade isn't a B- level pressure fighter.

He's a C- Level pressure fighter with an A++ chin. Anyone who can keep the distance well would stand a chance against Andrade because he's such a crude fighter with no real accuracy, as illustrated by his connect percentages to date against all fighters.

Mundine was a B in physical attributes but never rose past a C in gameplan and putting it all together on the night, clear prior losses before facing Kessler as well as complete substandard competition ever since damages his standing on Kesslers career.

Beyer was shot, even Beyer would admit that. He was lucky to escape with his title vs Bika and had huge complications with Green. It was a good win for Kessler to get but make no bones about it, Beyer would have lost to anyone of about ten fighters in SMW when he lost to Kessler.

Being as fair as possible to Mundine based on his achievements to date, can you seriously give him anything more than B-?

I think Kessler is a solid B. I don't think he's A-, A- doesn't get cleanly dominated at the thing he's supposedly best at - distance boxing.

Meanwhile, a guy like Pavlik for instance has beaten Taylor, Miranda, Zuniga and Zertuche. He's been knocked off his gameplan, near even knocked out and still managed to find a pathway to victory afterward.

Yet everyone takes it as a given that Kessler is better? Remember, this is a Joe Calzaghe who struggled with Bika, wasn't even hitting Manfredo when the stoppage was called and went life and death with a 43 yr old Hopkins in his very next fight

Yet he easily out pointed Kessler, the ease of which he did it was actually shocking, I could see people giving him the fight 10-2, I had it 9-3.

All of the above points to the fact that Kessler hasn't been severely tested in a fight that he has been able to win.

 

Andrade is B- level, he just destroyed Stieglitz who is fringe top 10 and supposed to be a good technical fighter with some power - should have been able to control the distance against a C-? Sure, he's pretty crude, but he has good stamina, iron chin, and some dig. Look for him to cause Bute some real problems, and it will prove it beyond doubt

I agree, Mundine has underachieved and is inconsistent, but he probably fought one of his best fights against Kessler. Watch that fight again and tell me you aren't impressed. That version is definitely B class, and causes Taylor, Bute or anybody else problems for my money

Pavlik's resume is not that much better. Why are Zertuche and Zuniga better than the guys I just mentioned for Kessler? Infact, they are a level or two below and that is being kind. Miranda, again, I don't rate him as a better fighter than Mundine, and it would be one hell of a war against Andrade. It is only really Taylor that seperates them. Kessler has also been in the ring with an elite, which is invaluable experience, I don't think you can say the same for any of these guys except possibly Taylor. Then you have to put this into the context that the fight would take place at 168, which is a big advantage to Kessler

My only question about him is how he comes back from defeat, and his adaptability

We all know fights aren't won on resumes anyway. From what I have seen, Kessler has shown skills that would make him a worthy favourite over these guys

 

Stieglitz Top 10? Maybe prior to getting the stuffing knocked out of him by Berrio, same Berrio who got the **** kicked out of him by Bute.

There are too many huge questions around the guys Kessler has beaten for anyone to consider him unbeatable from 160-168.

Especially considering the range of styles and types of fighters that are still unbeaten at both of those weights.

Do you think Pavlik, Abraham, Taylor, Bute, Miranda, Inkin or even Froch have any issues beating the guys Kessler has beaten?

I think Pavlik knocks Mundine and Andrade out, personally. I think Abraham has a great chance to do the same.

I'm not saying for a second that Kessler isn't one of the top fighters of today and I'm not trying to make him seem like a C class fighter. He's a solid B in my view

But he's not a guy that is unbeatable, I think there are many interesting match-ups between 160-168 for him.

 

The biggest issue Kessler has is predictability, especially now that he's known on a world level.

They know what to expect from him and they know how to beat him, putting the gameplan into operation is all that is required.

 

I don't think he's unbeatable, he loses to Joe Calzaghe! Nah, I seriously don't think he is, I just make him a heavy favourite against Bute and Taylor and a clear favourite over Pavlik. I think Dawson would beat him...

Pavlik could beat Mundine and Andrade, but it would be tougher for him, I don't think he'd look as impressive as Kessler. If he wants to come forward and go to war like usual with Andrade, good luck to him, but he's putting himself in danger. I don't think he can stand off and box like Kessler. Mundine could potentially cause problems with his speed too, although I think his mental weakness would come into play against Pavlik's pressure

Taylor struggles with Andrade, I'm sure of it. Just a styles thing, Taylor doesn't like working at that pace and I don't believe he can hurt Andrade. The lazy defence could cost him too. I see Mundine as a pick'em, provided he shows up as he did against Kessler, you've got two great atheletes, Taylor has the edge due to his experience with tough competition

Abraham, Andrade is bad for him. He doesn't like working 3 minutes. Andrade could very well outpoint and outwork him given his chin, it is not hard to imagine at all as long as the fight ain't in Germany. Gut feeling is he can KTFO Mundine with his questionable chin, I think he has the skill to get through with that one clean hard shot

As for Bute, I think he'll beat Andrade, but not without problems, we'll find out soon enough. Close points win against Mundine

Miranda I'm confident loses both. In a war with Andrade, I take the guy with much the better chin, its common sense. Mundine could clown him, as long as he doesn't lose concentration he'd take a points verdict, as unlike Abraham he is more predictable and crude

Not much point in going into Inkin and Froch, as they are still at an unproven stage

So overall, no I don't think Kessler is unbeatable, but I think you underrate his resume and manner of victories somewhat, and especially the factor of him being a very big SMW when most of these guys have minimal experience at the weight.

 

So far, outside of Calzaghe, the only guy that had success landing on Kessler was Mundine, the problem I viewed in that fight was that Mundine was too afraid of being hit.

When he came forward and threw in flurries, he backed Kessler up and had great success, he just wasn't willing to wear the jab all night to do it.

A guy like Pavlik will do that, without issue.

As for Andrade and Mundine, I think we rate them completely differently, it's hard for me to rate a walking chin as a top level fighter, especially when to this point, he hasn't beaten anyone to be considered Top 10.

We'll have a better understanding of Andrade after Bute in my view.

Kessler meanwhile fights Sartison in a fight that is lose/lose. All he gains from the fight is the token WBA strap, which has become the laughing stock of every division.

People used to think WBO was bad, at least WBO has a consistent policy on it's champs!

 

Yeah, I guess its like I said, Mundine is scared of getting KTFO. He honestly has a very questionable chin. It is a miracle he went 12 rounds with so many good punchers, it proves he has very good defence and reflexes

I don't see why Andrade can't be top 10, that is absurd to me. How do you get in the top 10? You beat solid contenders, ranked 10-20, you don't always have to beat a top ranked fighter. Stieglitz is that, there is no issue there. He did it impressively. He also has a win over Mack, and some other solid types. I mean, if you look through your top 10 at SMW try telling me they all beat much more impressive competition. This is a division of prospects. But yes, we will definitely see more after Bute, and he will suprise you!

Yes, Sartison isn't a great fight, I was disapointed. He still gets a belt, which is a bargaining tool for fights with Taylor, which is the long-term plan. Why would Taylor want to risk fighting him with nothing to offer?

 

Who are these good punchers Mundine lasted twelve against? Green? Green is only good if he connects, so far the best win on his career is against Stipe Drews (yeah, who?) which got him that laughable WBA strap.

Top 10 SMW (assuming Calzaghe is still there)

1. Calzaghe
2. Kessler
3. Bute
4. Inkin
5. Lacy
6. Froch
7. Mundine
8. Brahmer
9. Miranda
10. Green

Miranda gets in on the merits of having beaten Green, Green has since beaten some credible opposition.

Andrade could slot in as high as 8 if you were being favourable to him but based on competition, I don't think he deserves being there

 

What you are saying seems quite contradictory and unfair to Andrade, because you have someone like Denis Inkin as high as 4! Four! Extremely generous looking at his competition, I don't think he beat anybody better than Stieglitz unless I'm suffering from amnesia. Even Froch, who I like a great deal, he ain't really beat a live soul in world terms. A shot Robin Reid, thats about it. These are the guys you have high on your list, nevermind in the lower reaches. Then Juergen Braehmer, I believe he's fighting at 175 now, can't Librado even sneak him out?

I'm not neccessarily saying your rankings are wrong, like I said this is a prospects division. But there is clearly a big case for Andrade being top 10, beating Stieglitz, Mack, some solid guys, and 12 rounds with Kessler

I campaign for Andrade to be higher on your list! :yep

 

Andrade hasn't beaten a guy at the level of Veit yet, nor has he put in performances against unbeaten or once beaten fighters like Inkin has.

Inkin gets as high as four for being undefeated, being relatively impressive and having beaten a guy like Veit, who was still good enough to beat Braehmer.

My thoughts are, once you lose decisively to someone, you drop down the pegging.

Technically, we should rank Lacy as high as Kessler, he's only lost to the same competition and he's since come back and beaten two Top 15's in Typsko and Manfredo.

Like I admitted above, I have issues rating a walking chin like Andrade highly because I think anyone with a good gameplan and boxing skills should beat him 10/10.

 

You should probably decide on how you want to rank, because previously its been all about competition, now you are referring to skills. I personally like to consider both, but some clarity would be nice for the purpose of discussion

I find it hard to agree Veit is really a better win than Stieglitz and Mack. Stieglitz does have a win (and a loss) over Berrio, he ain't no bum. I can't imagine Joe would knock these guys out in a single solitary round. He has also looked aged recently, perhaps its more of a reflection on Brahmer that he got a close win rather than him being anything great :yep

This is like splitting hairs, Stieglitz or Veit, there is a clear case for Andrade being top 10 on competition alone, whether he deserves to on skills is more subjective :good

 

Competition and skills, you can't rank Andrade any higher than the first seven I mentioned

1. Calzaghe
2. Kessler
3. Bute
4. Inkin
5. Lacy
6. Froch
7. Mundine

He cannot be rated higher than any of those. There are good argument points for guys like Bika to be rated higher than him too.

He's a guy that should be beaten 10/10 by B fighters.

As for whether or not Joe would knock out those guys in one Round - the Joe that faced Veit first time up probably would have, you got to remember he was younger, faster and a power puncher.

We'll know anyway in about six or so months where to put Andrade. If he loses to Bute, I say we put him in the Andre Thysse bucket.

I don't see him winning against anyone with a good mentality and strong gameplan, solely because he doesn't have much of a skillset.

I see Boxrec rates Bute above Kessler, there is reason to do this if you're saying Berrio/Stieglitz are good opposition and credible for someone like Andrade.

Bute having beaten Bika, Joppy, Berrio, Obede Toney and handling Kabary Salem easier than Calzaghe, Echols and Veit does have an impressive resume, considering he hasn't lost.

If he fights and beats Andrade like he's expected, based on your own criteria, doesn't he rank higher than Kessler?

 

I agree, I wouldn't put him above them, I havn't thought about my list but he'd be in the lower echelons where is competing with the likes of Berrio, Bika, Green, Pascal, Miranda etc. The only thing I'd say about yours, is by my own criteria of competition, skills and even performance (massively underrated, too often people only look at W L or D) is I think Lacy is a bit high. Looked dreadful since he got destroyed by Calzaghe, I'd drop him below Froch and Mundine

I know Joe was more of a puncher back then, he's my favourite fighter of all-time, I like to think I know his career inside out. I still doubt he'd have finished them in a single round! I was just trying to put Veit into a bit of perspective really, he definitely isn't a clear cut level above Stieglitiz in his current state

I agree, Bute has a solid resume for a beltholder. Mundine, however, is still the best win on Kessler's record, which is what would give him an edge for me. Bute still won't have beaten that B class fighter. He'll also have to win a shutout to match Kessler's performance vs. Andrade. Also, from a skillset point of view, he has very little going for him over Kessler, other than perhaps lateral movement. There are a lot of things that are similar, stance aside, Kessler seems to have a little bit more in all departments

 

Lacy has looked dreadful, but he's pulled out wins against two guys that were Top 15, coming back from a shoulder injury and the crushing performance against Calzaghe, I think he's shown good heart and has beaten guys that for other fighters, would be considered good victories.

Mundine isn't that great of a win, I'm sorry but he's not. A guy who loses to Siaca and refuses to fight the types of fighters he should be facing if he wants to prove himself can't be considered a highlight. I'd rather say Andrade is a good win, at least it makes Kessler seem better.

Andrade has had low connect percentages against almost every opponent he faces, he just hasn't faced guys outside of Kessler who can stick to a gameplan over 12.

I got a sneaky feeling Bute will TKO/KO him, despite his impressive chin.

I think we can both agree however that any version of Calzaghe from Eubank on dominates Kessler in much the same fashion, if not worse than he did in their fight?

 

I guess our main difference is in our appraisal of Mundine, I rate him quite highly. Even if we removed Mundine from the equation, I'd still rank Kessler above Bute by virtue of having a greater skillset, and I very much doubt he'll win 12 rounds/TKO Andrade, but I'll be suitably impressed if he achieves it. My honest feeling is he overcomes some sticky moments to pull off a competitive decision

Yes, any version of Calzaghe beats Kessler. Especially the prime version I pick to stop him, I'm thinking around the Mitchell period. It's hard to pin down his prime, because you want to retain his amazing physical gifts at their peak, but also those rings smarts, so its a balance. The key difference between the two will always be adaptability, Kessler hasn't got it yet :-(

Anyway, its good to speak with somebody with knowledge of the best and most underrated division in boxing :yep