Kessler v Bute

Good post as always, TFFP.

 

The only aspect of your post where I don't think you are spot on is in regards to is the Calzaghe-Kessler fight. The fight was competitive - well, Kessler was even ahead for the first 5 rounds. Then Calzaghe changed his game and Kessler had to reaccess the situation (usually he uses the first 2-3 rounds to do so). Fortunately for Joe, Kessler never really figured him out and luckily he didn't stop trying until round 12 where he just let his hands go. Some say that he was afraid his hand could not last the fight if he let them go sooner and others (including me) think it was just a matter of trying to figure out that made him seem tentative and one step behind. Calzaghe didn't beat Kessler on skill but on smarts and on making Kessler fight reactively. However, truth be told no other fighter in the world (across any division) is so akward and experienced as Slappy-Joe so it is probably unlikely we will get to see a tentative and awaiting Kessler ever again (who knows). But if we consider that Hopkins probably would not have gotten a single round (round one even because of KD) if it had happened in Wales in front of 60.000 fans then we can better evaluate the Calzaghe-Kessler fight. Fresh hands would imo. not have changed a lot (sure, I am aware that he didn't spar for a month up to the fight - but I don't know how important that is exactly..) - I think the place made Kessler and his team go into a kind of limbo in rounds 6-11 that they would not have been in if the fight had taken place in Copenhagen. So I personally think the place was far more important to the outcome than the injured hand and poor preparation. This also means I think Kessler would have had a good chance in Copenhagen, but would still have lost in Wales even with perfect hand and sparring up to the fight.

As I said, the Bute / Kessler observations are really good. Really good post. Most insightful and precise post of the day on ESB probably.:good

 

1. Anything top 20 p4p is a lock for top competition. I consider Kessler's only world class opponent to be Calzaghe, and he slightly underperformed in that bout given the age difference. You can maybe make a case for Andrade being top competition if you are generous. Kessler's handling of Andrade was his defining moment, and there is enough clinical annihilation in that fight to show Kessler is at least slightly more skilled than Bute.
2. No, I don't think so. For example, Jermain Taylor's greatest strength is athleticism, and that is not his greatest weakness.
3. Bute is a counterpunching southpaw who stops opponents with hooks and uppercuts more than left hands (from the fights I have seen). I can't tell exactly how predictable he is without being in the ring with him, but he seems to have a recipe for unpredictability. Also, when a textbook fighter is unpredictable, it is in my opinion usually a non-textbook aspect of his game that makes him unpredictable. You can certainly argue against this, and I'd be interested to see examples of an unpredictable textbook fighter who has a pristine textbook game.

 

Yeah, you're right! There aren't many elite fighters around right now. My list is as follows: Pacquiao, JM Marquez, Cotto, Vazquez, R Marquez, Calderon and Mijares. Calzaghe, Hopkins, Wright, Guzman, Casamayor, etc. aren't what they used to be, but the're almost there, even though they're getting worse. Then you have fellers like Haye, Pavlik, Dawson, Montiel, and a couple others, who are also almost there, but getting better. Then you have fellers like Kessler, Campbell, Jones and such, who are in a no-man's land, for one reason or another.

The reason Kessler I'm saying Kessler is not particularly intelligent, versatile or strong-willed enough is because he cannot respond well mid-fight to changing circumstances, because he doesn't lay it all on the line when he's behind and because he doesn't have enough feathers in his cap to surprise top end opponents. With Kessler, you know exactly what you're gonna get. What he does is very good, but you know what it is and it's limited. And when he had to lay it all on the line against Calzaghe, he failed to pull the trigger, leaving it all too late. Now, hopefully he will become more versatile and will lay it all on the line earlier when he has to. Hope also he fights better than he did against Sartison, because that was no better than a good world-class performance from him. Kessler is good for boxing because he is willing to take on the best. Hope to see him in some big fights soon, feller!

 

I'll agree that his game is grounded in a European type style. However, I have always seen him use plenty of hooks/uppercuts/body jabs. Other differences include head movement and hand placement. He keeps one hand low and the other pressed to his chest a lot. You can view this as a flaw and a result of inferior skill, or you can view it as an effective stylistic difference. The jury is still out since Bute hasn't fought someone as good as Kessler.

 

Nah, little feller, Bute doesn't fight like Kessler at all; just read MrStayman's description of their styles if you haven't seen them fight. Also, I reckon it's strange to assume Bute will adopt the style best suited to Kessler, don't you think?

 

He won't get away with that style against Kessler. My feelings are strong on this, I don't like how he fights, and I think he can improve a lot if he got a new trainer that used his strengths. How well he competes with Kessler depends on how quickly he changes from that style to the more aggressive (and effective) style he can employ, because I honestly see him losing a near shutout if he fought 12 rounds like that

Keeping your hands low definitely isn't an advantage against Kessler. As a southpaw you are just completely open to Kessler's best punch, any top quality fighters best punch. He's not Roy Jones or Floyd Mayweather, he doesn't have the reflexes, it doesn't add to his offence enough to outweigh the disadvantage of how much he gets tagged. You didn't see Calzaghe fight with his hands down against Kessler

Early Bute poses more stylistic problems than current Bute

 

Looks like I've seen him way more than you. I know exactly how he fights, I've studied him a lot recently. He's an interesting fighter to me, because I see a rough diamond.

 

Rough diamond? Bute? I'm laughing here!

 

Yep. Not as in he's going to become the next p4p great, but in that I don't believe that he is being employed as effectively as he could.

 

Imo. Bute is top 30 already p4p on skill. Not on accomplishments yet. As far as I remember in the tread "top 25 (or was it 30?) p4p list" the majority on ESB had Bute somewhere in the lower part of the list. There is really no reason why he could not be ranked as high as for example Abraham once he's had a few more fight.

 

Bute can always go back to fighting the way he's done before but what's the point? It would make him a more all-action, aggressive fighter, but it wouldn't make him a more effective fighter against top fighters who know how to lay on hurt as well as take it. Against such fighters, Bute needs to show good defensive skills and to take advantage as much as possible of their moments of weakness and potential mistakes. Bute fights cat and mouse allright and that's the way to go for him against the best, you better believe it! Trouble for Bute is, it ain't enough! Defence is not good enough and jab is poor. Big problems for Bute.

 

Well apart from I think he'd be far more effective against Kessler this way, he'd also be more exciting, pick up more fans and be more marketable

You aren't beating Kessler, or any good boxer puncher with a cautious style that involves keeping your hands low and a weak jab. Why not use the speed he has - he's not Roy Jones but his lateral movement is superior to many in the division. Why not use his offensive variety and solid power more aggressively - this is your strength!

 

1a) Okay, fair enough. So an imaginary list sets the standard, but okay - I can accept that. I fail to see anything in Calzaghes' performance that age was a setback. In fact I have never seen him be smarter. He has lost a bit in speed, and power. His stamina is still out of this world. I rate this as being at least JCs 2nd best performance ever. Not only due to comp. Still I believe Kessler proved himself, even if he underperformed(most likely due to Calzaghe), and lost.

1b) All Kesslers fights have been total annihilation(by boxing, not having a great one-shot or something). They may not be p4p top 20s, but still top performers in the division, and 168 is not a weak division. You bring up the Andrade fight. Tell me why you would only give him a slight advantage, when I have never seen such stellar performance from Bute, against lesser comp. In fact he has struggled in most of his fights.

2) If athleticism is Taylors strong point, then it seems to work against him, because he stands still, and his workrate is fairly low, and didnt use it at all against Wright to get off the ropes. I fail to see it has helped him at all. If I am wrong then - okay - then I need to revise my philosophy.

3) No need to discuss this further. Kessler is somewhat predictable, but only one has unlocked him. It took the most versatile fighter to do so.

 

What does these men have that Kessler hasnt? Kessler has great offense and good defence; rarely gets hit, while he has a great landing ratio. Vasquez and Marquez have no defense what so ever. Their offense is elite, but that is as far as that goes. I could go on about most of them, but will just sum it up; why are they considered elite to you? They are NOT more complete fighters that is for sure. Don't say comp, because ie Calderons comp is worse than Kesslers. It seems to be well known names you are throwing out - many of which are US fighters.

I take great offense that you think Pavlik is in a group above Kessler - thats a ****ing insult.

All you have is one sole fight to make your assumption that he can't change. And he wasn't behind. He simply gassed for whatever reason, and therefore couldn't handle Calzaghe anymore. It doesn't help that his corner said different things and 60k spectators were trying to throw him off. Still, Kessler fought most of the match in a totally different way than he usually does - it just wasn't enough, he couldn't unlock Calzaghe. Great kudos to Calzaghe for negating Kesslers offense. Masterfully done. Hopkins couldnt unlock him either, even if he had chosen the only tactic that could save his ass; clinching. I don't care if Hopkins is 43, he would have done the same at 35; nothing that Hopkins does withers with age.

A fight you criticize you call a good world class performance, but you will stll have Kessler at: Not elite, not at A, but at B lvl (assuming that was your grouping).