Kid Gavilan v Pernell Whitaker

I'd favor Whitaker over Williams, Bratton, and narrowly over Graham. Bell was likely pushing past his prime by the time Gavilan got to him, and I'd take Whitaker over him narrowly anyway. You're right about the likes of Lausse and the Middles, but that's irrelevant when matching Whitaker and Gavilan with each other. Gavilan was bigger and stronger, and thus more equipped to handle the size and strength of those types.

I'd favor none of Whitaker's opponents over Gavilan, in fact I wouldn't favor Whitaker himself conclusively, although I believe he has a shot. You seem to base all of your analysis on how many fights said fighters have had, rather than what they actually proved in those fights. Do you believe someone like Willie Joyce was better than Whitaker just because he had more fights? You're aware that Chavez had over twice the amount of fights Whitaker did as well? Lotta good that did him, eh?

 

And you still didn't answer the question.

 

You will agree that Henry Armstrong would have beaten Pernell Whitaker
Just check their respective records. Whitaker's pales beside's Armstrong's
Well Willie Joyce licked Henry Armstrong TWICE.
So "what did Willie Joyce have to beat Williams " answers itself....,
We are going around in a circle with this. I base my opinions on my own
two eyes and judgments of Gavilan and Whitaker,AND their records of their opponents, who they both fought...

 

I will?

He went 2-2 with Armstrong toward the end of Armstrong's career.

It does?

Your initial point regarding Whitaker's inability to hang with these guys was that he didn't have the power to keep them honest. The same is true of Joyce, so how was he able to better the likes of Ike Williams 3 out of 4? The answer is skills. Joyce didn't need punching power, because his style and skill-set was a foil to Ike's flat-footed, conservative approach. He didn't give Williams the opportunities he normally got, and thus rendered him ineffective. The same would be true of Whitaker, in my opinion, and in fact was true time and again throughout his career. What did he have to beat Chavez with? Why couldn't Chavez, even with his vast number of fights, figure him out? Why didn't he just walk through him if Whitaker didn't have the punch to keep him honest?

 

El, a few points...
i- Willie joyce won 2 out of 3 from Ike Williams
2- Willie Joyce had certain skills that nullified the great punching power of Ike Williams.
3- Pernell had great skills also,that would be troubling for Williams.
4-I say Willie joyce licked the great Henry Armstrong twice.
5-You respond by saying Henry Armstrong at 31 was past his peak.
6-You say "why couldn't Chavez, with his vast number of fights, figure
out Whitaker in their close fight " ?
7-I ,then respond as you did ala Armstrong, that Julio Caesar Chavez was
ALSO 31 years old, and past HIS peak, same age as Henry Armstrong,
when Willie Joyce licked him...What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, I think.
8-You respond to my post that Welter Kid Gavilan, licked such big and strong middleweights as powerful left hooking Eduardo Lausse and
Frenchman Laurent Dauthille, who once beat Jake LaMotta, by saying that
"we are talking about Gavilan against Whitaker ", nothing else...
9- Don't you think that the Kid Gavilan who had the GREAT ability to lick
these 2 awfully tough middleweights,would bring the same skillset, against
Pernell Whitaker, as he had against strongmen as Lausse, Dauthille, and
the TOUGH middleweight Ralph Tiger Jones ? Well I Do ?

 

pernell faster stronger better puncher wins quick 1st round kayo:think

 

atsch

The comedy hour is on a different channel atsch

 

No arguments here.

You assume that numerical age is the standard for determining a fighter's prime? Chavez certainly hadn't shown too many signs of aging prior to the Whitaker fight, although I do tend to agree he was on a slow decline at the time. Also, Whitaker/Chavez wasn't close. Not enough for me to believe Chavez would've fared too much better prime for prime. You could argue that Whitaker wasn't at his peak at the time, either.

Sure, I just don't see how Gavilan's fights with those men have any bearing whatsoever on a matchup with Whitaker. Stylistically these guys are more or less polar opposites.

 

nice to see burt and el bujia having a boxing intellectual conversation without name calling. both of you make good arguments.

 

You should show Burt respect. He knows a ton and deserves it...

 

:dealagreed. while i may disagree with some of their points, it's an intelligent and respectful (for the most part) argument

 

Burt has a boatload of knowledge, much of it being first-hand. I have a lot of respect for him, I'm just bamboozled by his logic some of the time.

 

Henry Armstrong had already lost to Zivic and Shank before facing Joyce. His situation was quite different to that of Chavez.

Both were past their best yes, but Armstrong had declined to a stage where Chavez hadn't. Chavez was still regarded to be the best fighter in the sport and the most dominant champion, Armstrong was no longer that when Joyce fought him.

And Willie Joyce beat Ike 3 times Burt, not twice.

Ike Williams showed throughout his career that he had trouble with boxer types. It wasn't just Willie Joyce that troubled him. Stylistically boxers were a weakness for him.

I don't think it's insane to say that Ike Williams beats Whitaker, but imo he struggled with inferior fighters to Whitaker, and that can't be dismissed as irrelevant to the fight...

 

SS, I stand corrected. Willie Joyce decisioned Ike Williams 3 times.
Willie Joyce, who I saw at MSG, was a smooth classic boxer, fast and saavy, who had the past peak Henry Armstrongs number...Yes I know Henry was past his zenith. I saw Ray Robinson toy with the fading Armstrong at MSG,Aug.27,1943, 2 months after Armstrong beat Willie
Joyce on July 24,1943...
The fact remains, I still believe fervently that Kid Gavilan,at his best at
Welterweight, would have licked Pernell Whitaker, at his best...I cannot see any of Pernell's opponents beating The Hawk...He was a non-stop
aggressive fighter with unbounded energy, and an iron chin, never Kod in 143 bouts.
In conclusion- Gavilan DECISIONS Whitaker in 15 rds...IMO..Cheers...

 

Totally agree, Gavilan is too much for Whitaker and definitely too much for anyone he ever fought.

Given his track record with boxer types, I'd say Beau Jack is more likely to beat Pea than Ike Williams. Jack's record against pure boxers is outstanding...