Kid Lavigne, ATG?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BitPlayerVesti, Dec 22, 2018.


  1. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Where do you rank him?

    I feel like go through a few of his fights later.
     
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Definitely an all time great, but beyond that, the devil is in the detail.
     
  3. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Yeah, just didn't think of a better name for this thread.

    Just seeing what people think of him.
     
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  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #15 at lightweight, which is like being top 8 in almost every other division.
     
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Spot on!
     
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  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The center piece of his resume, is obviously his wins over Barbados Joe Walcott.

    The terms that Wacott was forced to fight under, were some of the most outrageous in the history of the sport, and it might well have been a TKO win for Walcott a couple of decades later.

    Even so, you have to give Lavigne respect for enduring that storm!
     
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  7. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    What were the conditions exactly?
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Ridiculous terms.

    Without looking them up, Walcott had to make weight under very unfavorable terms, and Lavigne just had to finish the fight on his feet.

    It was like Canello Golovkin I on steroids!
     
  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    His fight with Bowen
    The Salt Lake herald., December 16, 1894, Page 3, Image 3
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...ed-1/seq-3/#words=lavigne+bowen+Lavigne+bowen

    Vs Everhardt
    The sun., May 31, 1895, Page 3, Image 3
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...everhardt+Lavigne+Everhardt+lavigne+everhardt

    Vs Young Griffo
    The sun., October 13, 1895, Page 9, Image 9
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...vigne&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

    First bout with Walcott, said he had to make 133Ibs at 6 o'clock
    The sun., December 03, 1895, Page 4, Image 4
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/.../seq-4/#words=lavigne+walcott+Lavigne+walcott

    Vs Everhardt II
    Kansas City daily journal., October 28, 1896, Image 5
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...hardt&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

    The sun., October 29, 1896, Page 9, Image 9
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...hardt&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

    Vs McPartland
    The sun., February 09, 1897, Page 5, Image 5
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...tland&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

    Vs Connolly
    The sun., May 01, 1897, Page 5, Image 5
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...eq-5/#words=lavigne+connolly+Lavigne+connolly

    Vs Walcott II
    The San Francisco call., October 30, 1897, Page 8, Image 8
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/.../seq-8/#words=lavigne+walcott+Lavigne+walcott

    The herald. [microfilm reel], October 30, 1897, Page 2, Image 2
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/.../seq-2/#words=lavigne+walcott+Lavigne+walcott
     
  10. Sting like a bean

    Sting like a bean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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  11. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    The Referee - Sunday 07 June 1896
    To the Committee of the National Sporting Club I beg to sumbit the following submit the following statement. Not two or three only, but two or three dozen gentlemen, some members of the club, others visitors introduced by member, but all subscribers of several guineas towards Monday's entertainment, have declared to me or in my presence that they will not again go to see a big turn at the club unless they know at what time it is to commence, and that time leaves fair prospect of the match being over before midnight. With this I most cordially agree. Never did a show start better than Monday's, nor has the entertainment ever been kept up in more interesting fashion. We liked the first set-to, but we had come to see Burge and Lavigne. Bout number two was very excellent indeed. We took that and were duly grateful, but mainly to pass time till the swell actors took the stage. A third item claimed attention. Anyone who did not appraciate this as real jam could know very little about boxing. Still the play, I mean Burge and Lavigne, was the thing; our minds were fixed on that. And then, after being charmed by means of brisk, bright battles of three two minute rounds, up were put Ted White, and Dido Plumb to go seventy-nine minutes if they possibly could. Ted White is a worthy fellow, as familar to frequenters of the club as the turnstiles. Plumb is no stranger. Novelty did not attach to this entertainment. Why set it for a score rounds? True, one expects such contests to conclude themselves long before the nominally appointed duration, and perhaps be won in a round or two. But, admitting all that, why not guard against contingency of tiring customer's patience by setting the limit at ten rounds? Any way, with a full house waiting, and waiting impatiently, to see what they had come to see, and two middle-to-heavyweights lurching about the stage round by round, some sort of closure rule would have been welcomed. White began well and went all to the bad. You could not believe that Plumb was the same man who had figured creditably before. His sole redeeming quality was dogged gameness, and happy relief arrived when, in the seventeenth round, White hooked his glove round Plumb's neck, and following up a swinging blow that way, and hanked him flat on the floor, at which Mr. Angle put a stop to the dreary proceedings.
    * * *
    When this pair were dismissed most who had to catch the last trins made up their minds they would see very little of Burge's battle with Lavigne, and had pretty well forgotten the three extra animated turns which led up to White V. Plumb. Of these turns, good as they were, I have not room to speak. Of White and Plumb the best part of their performance was the exit, leaving the stage clear for Burge and Lavigne. Odds of from 6 to 4 to 9 to 4, and then from 9 to 4 to 7 to 4, were laid on Dick, who was not so well treated by the Americans as he might have been. They made the match for a stake which I am informed they did not put up. They played a little game of jiggery pokery about the weighing-in, knowing that their man could do the weight easily, and on the chance that by putting off scaling the other, who had to get down quickly at last, would be prejudiced through waiting for a meal. And they did that, although, while good odds were betted on Dick, he generously acquiesced in a suggestion to save a couple of hundred out of the purse. I don't exactly blame them for wanting a timekeeper of their own appointing to check Mr. Cousins, but if they desired to procure that concession they ought to have made it a stipulation in the articles. Mr. Angle would not have anything to do with the proposal. Quite right, too. So after Burge had crossed to Lavigne's corner, chopped a colour, and had a friendly hand-shake, and Mr.James Carney, or Birmingham, one of Dick's corner men, had received quite an ovation, time was soon called for Round 1. Burge was fine—too fine—and suffered by comparison with the American as regards muscle. Dick alwats makes the most of his height, and so he is a couple of inches taller than the other, who crouches a bit, considerable disparity was to be noticed. A very awkward customer is Lavigne, whose friends must have been playing the game when they said he was half a stone under the agreed 9st. 12Ib. He shaped with both hands up to his eyes, except when he is hitting or the dexter manly is by suddenly administered friction relieving irratation located in the nose. Another perculiaritty in common to the U.S. school of boxing, more particularly the blacks, is his, viz, standing with both feet almost on the same line, and the shoulders nearly square to the enemy's front. Perculiarities I call them, no defects, because unconventional mannisms are not defects, unless they render a man ineffective, and that Lavigne is not by any manner of means. Quite the other way about. He is one of the most determined two-handed worrying fighters of our time. Whether Dick could have stopped his persistet assaults had he been in full strength is open to question. As it was, he speedily recognised that his game was to wait and let his opponent—who, if I am not mistaken, squints in a very perplexing style—tire himself out. Perhaps Lavigne does not understand what it is to be tired. Anyway, he was always at it while I watched him, i.e., for five rounds; and my partner, who took up the running from that to the finnish, assures me the visitor was then as full of fire as at the start.
    * * *
    As soon as time was called, Lavigne started what may be called fast worrying tactics—plug, plug, plug and no rest. Burge was content to wait and see what was to follow, but it was difficult to stall off the Canadian. Early in the round Lavigne missed Burge in a rush, and fell against one of the stakes. Dick land two or three wonderful side hits while slipping his man, but there was a lot of powder behind the visitor's shots, and he was quick as lightning with his right. Lavigne, fighting for the body quite low enough, got in some damaging hits which were bound to tell. He kept at the same game in the second round, and almost at the outset scored thrice just about the belt. What did more harm was that he got home a couple of straight drives over the hips while Burge had his back to him, having almost dodged clear of a rush. Very nasty hits these. The third was a very fine round—one, to, that told pretty clearly that Burge was ot himself, and had not his old strength. After dwelling and devoting himself to stalling off Lavigne's repeated rushes—the little man never ceased endeavouring to bore in to close quaters—Burge let out and landed a beautiful straight left-hander on the eye, which ought to have shaken his opponent, but did not, neither did a warm right on the ear which followed. The bout ended with a pretty rally, both going fast and well. In the fourth turn the Kid scored the most, and frequently about the waist. Burge was not idle, but he took more than he gave. Lavigne in the fifth round chanded his plan of operations and went for his antagonist's head. Thrice he scored on the chin and neck—real warm ones they were, and one very hot indeed. Things were going badly for our man, who, however, was calm and wary and made no sign. As Lavigne was gaining quite a long lead Burge went for him and got the right fairly home a real beauty. Towards the end of the round Dick did more work than the other and certainly had the best of it—for this round, that is. He really looked as if he would be able to keep the enemy away, but all through he seemed to lack his usual strength. Burge did not show it, but he had received a deal of punishment on the body, more than one will get in a long fight sometimes. He was not strong enough to cope with his pertinscious rival, who appeared able to stay for a week. Until the fifth round Dick had not held his own. In that he, at least, did not lose ground, but there appeared to me small chance of his finishing his opponent who was so strong and fit. At this stage of the proceedings I had to reture in order to catch the midnight train at Waterloo, where I was joined by a posse of sportsmen, all grumbling at being dosed with White and Plumb and having their time wasted, so that they had to quite the ring after seeing a little bit of the show that drew them from home. My deputy informs me that in the sixth round Burge woke up a little, and with a very straight punch full on the nose turned on Lavigne's claret. The American did not seem to relish that, and immediately made another desperate effort, but after running almost through the ropes he was brought up suddenly with a with a splendid straight punch on the eye from Burge's left hand. In the seventh round Burge countered well with the left on the eye repeatedly, and his supportersbegan to cheer up and think that there might yet be a chance; but every now and then the Kid showed such terrific power that anyone who knew anything about the game could see that it was a hundred to one on him bar accidents. At the same time there always seemed a slight chance of Burge bringing off the knock out. However, he didn't — but gradually became weaker and weaker until in the seventeenth round Mr. Angle stopped it. All the way through Lavigne was too strong for Duck, and he finished quite as strong as he started.
     
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  13. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Draw with Frank Erne

    The sun., September 29, 1898, Page 9, Image 9
    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...asetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=range&page=1

    Vs Tom Tracey
    San Francisco Call, Volume 84, Number 179, 26 November 1898
    https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SFC1898...---en--20--1--txt-txIN-lavigne+tracey-------1

    Vs Mysterious Billy Smith
    San Francisco Call, Volume 85, Number 101, 11 March 1899
    https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SFC1899...----en--20--1--txt-txIN-lavigne+smith-------1

    Apparently "a good little man cannot cope with a good big man" was already an old saying in 1899, I wonder how old that saying is.
     
  14. Bukkake

    Bukkake Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Is Kid Lavigne an ATG boxer?

    That depends on what we mean by "ATG". Taken literally, it of course means someone who would be great, and maybe be able to make it all the way to the top, no matter what era we place him in.

    But this is not the way we use the term here on Classic! Here we want to honour the trailblazers of our sport, the early practitioners of gloved boxing, on whose shoulders all later champions (figuratively) stand.

    So there may be a tendency to call popular boxers from the late 19th century ATGs (like Sullivan, Corbett, Nonpareil, etc.)… even though they likely were only greats in their own time (OTGs).


    Just my $.02
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  15. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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