Kid Norfolk

So by that reasoning, we should give him a pass against every big fighter he ever fought? Because that's essentially what you're saying. And everyone he beat above 160 is extra credit. I would argue it just isn't that simple, as most here would.

If Greb was this superhuman dynamo as we've ALL been led to believe (and I'm not arguing he wasn't, by the way) then he should be expected to do things like this. We give him worlds of credit for beating Tunney the one time, so why not give points where they're due in Norfolk's case, rather than sloughing it off as an expectation, or with an asterisk? That's severely cutting the other man short.

 

I guess it depends on how you look at it. If Pacqiao fought Andre Ward and lost a points decision would you give Andre Ward a ton of credit for the victory? Because that is essentially what you are arguing. Flip and assume Pac beats Ward. Wouldnt you give Pac worlds of credit? Of course! Its not a double standard because both fighters went into the match knowing the risk/reward ratio. Its probably the biggest reason Dempsey chose not to fight Greb. He knew Greb was a threat and had won his status as a contender legitimately but he also knew that if he won he would have just beaten a middleweight, which should have been expected. Had he lost he would have lost an incredible amount of prestige. In that boat most fighters in history decided that discretion is the better part of valor and looked elsewhere for challenges. So in short, yeah, basically all or most of the guys above 158 that Greb fought I consider gravvy. Remember this is a guy who fought his first champion in 1917 and won. After that the same champ refused to defend against Greb. He fought his second champ in 1918 in that champs home town and the papers split as to the winner. After that the champ refused to fight him. That champ lost to Johnny Wilson and Johnny Wilson flat out refused to fight Greb to the point that he was literally banned from the sport for two years and only able to fight in tank towns. During that time Wilson literally made about $800 off his title. When Wilson finally decided to face Greb for the title rather than languish he lost. Six years after Greb's first try at the championship in his division. Meanwhile in order to make money he was forced to go out of his weight class where, in 1917 he defeated the LHW champ, who he then proceded to beat every other time they met and did so easily. When that champ lost his title to Carpentier Carp refused to meet Greb. Carp lost to Siki, and Greb signed three seperate contracts on three seperate occasions to fight Siki. Siki wouldnt fight him (he fought Norfolk though). Siki lost to McTigue who had been beaten by Greb twice. McTigue refused to face Greb. McTigue lost to Delaney, Delaney wouldnt fight Greb. Delaney lost to Berlenbach, Berlenbach wouldnt fight Greb. You can go on and on with this. But meanwhile Greb was fighting guys like Miske, Brennan, Tunney, and Gibbons and beating them. Somehow all got shots ahead of Greb at HW but whatever, Greb proved himself. He also called out Dempsey's other challengers Carp and Firpo but those guys wanted absolutely no part of him. Carpentier wouldnt even spar with Greb. BUT, but we are supposed to judge a guy who could make 158 by the same standards that we judge guys who make 180 or even 200 lbs??? That makes no sense.


Whew, and finally, no I wouldnt argue that Greb was a superhuman dynamo. Thats the whole point of my book and my arguments. He was very human, with all of our flaws and frailties and thats why what he accomplished was so incredible. Had he been a superhuman he would be expected to accomplish those feats and it would lessen his accomplishments. It causes unreal expectations of him (which I feel you have). He stood five foot eight and could make 158 ringside. Thats smaller than Bernard Hopkins. He had all of the personal problems and outside of the ring troubles that we all have (more maybe) and for him to accomplish what he did is truly amazing, but I cannot impress enough upon people that Greb wasnt a superman, or a superhuman, he was very real and very human and it is that which makes him so special and so unbelievable.

 

Klompton ,You have just summed up the legacy of Harry Greb, more
succinctly than anything I have ever read on the subject...Today most
posters when judging Greb do not understand his greatness..
His fighting so often, giving away weight to his opponents all the time ,is
somehow by DESIGN or forgetfullness, is a crime! Truly is...
What would they think about a top racehorse, who in most of his races ,
races and wins, with heavier weights thrust on him than the other top
racehorses ? They would conclude that this racehorse ,running and WINNING,against horses with less weight, was the greatest ! And so with
Harry Greb, in boxing history...The greatest...K, you hit a home run...

 

Thanks for the concern, but I'm not exactly a neophyte myself, I have no multi-colored visions of Greb dancing in my head.

The point, apart from paragraphs of filigree, is simply this........people build Greb's legend and status on his body of work as a whole which is more than fair. He earned it; he was a stud, I'm not arguing that. This body of work includes victories over bigger opponents which is terrific for his legacy. My argument is that when that bigger guy manages to beat him (and transport yourself back in time to dispute that victory all you will) we should look on that result as quite an achievement to the man that managed to topple him, just as we applaud Greb for beating those bigger men when he was able to. Fair's fair. If Greb was so great, then size takes secondary consideration to this (to a degree, of course), as we learned as recently as two weeks ago wth Pac-Margarito.

I'm not looking to give anyone extra points, just trying to even the playing field. Greb WAS a sensation, there's no doubt about that. So what's wrong with elevating another guy's legacy because he beat him? If you wanna split that hair, where is your cutoff for consideration for credit? Is it ten pounds? twelve?

For any man to handle Greb (disputed decsion though it may have been depending on whose account you read) that weighed anything near his weight........well, I'm sorry; that man deserves credit. That takes some doing and requires the skill of a really REALLY good fighter, and I don't care if he weighs 180 pounds. Not many 180 pound men in history that could have turned that trick, and that is the essence of my argument.

 

Again, Sal, you have to look at the nature of Norfolk's "victories" over Greb. If won fair and square (without any controversy, which is clearly not the case) I'd adhere to your viewpoint. As it is....

 

This is where we differ. How do you take a man weighing twenty pounds more than Greb and even the playing field??? You say that any man who weighs near Greb and gives him trouble is deserving credit and then say you dont care if that man weighs 180 pounds. That doesnt make sense to me. Why should we not consider his weight as a benefit to him and a detriment to Greb? Why should all these things be considered equal. You wouldnt now, today. As stated above, if Pacqiao fought and lost a decision to Andre Ward would be criticised for not doing more. If Pac won a decision over Ward he would be given TONS of credit. The playing field is not level.

 

Okay; I guess we'll just have to differ.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvbJxEOnh4[/ame]

 

I actually cannot wait for Klomton's book on Greb. Even just for the copious amount of research he has done for it.

 

when is the book coming out?

 

Be prepared to keep on waiting, I've been hearing about this book for around ten years!
He said it was nearly completed about 7 years ago, don't know what's happened in the interim.

 

Can't wait for the follow-up volume, "Kid Norfolk Suuuuuucked!"

 

I clearly never said Kid Norfolk sucked.

As for when it will be out, yes I have delayed it several times, I am on no time schedule and wont release it until its as good as it can be. Those who purchase it will thank me for my diligence when its done.

 

Make no attempt at impartiality or non-condescending prose.Just for teh lulz.