Kid Norfolk

No real knowledge except that he fought Harry Greb twice and went 1 win, 1 loss. Both appear to have been tough fights.

Check out the Harry Greb book by Compton, classic book on a great fighter, there was a fair bit on Norfolk in that from memory.

 

What would you like to know robert?

 

If you could describe him in roughly three sentences, how would you?

 

Very good, not great fighter. Very interesting career. His size and weight (in addition to being black and talented) held him back because he was too big for lhw and too small for hw.

 

Cool! Thank you.

 

Norfolk started out fighting in battle royals like a lot of African-American fighters of the era and graduated very early on into the professional ranks. His options were limited by the color of his skin and after three years of pugilistically treading water he did what a lot of black fighters did at the time, he took a gamble on travelling by steamer to Panama. The Panama canal was being constructed flooding the country with working men who enjoyed all manner of entertainment. Boxing was chief among these and the demand for fighters was great enough to afford black fighters with more opportunity than many had enjoyed in the USA. Norfolk made an immediate hit with fans in Panama. Not content to just work as a paid gladiator Norfolk very quickly purchased a gym and began training fighters and promoting fights in Canal Zone. Norfolk would show this entrepeneurial spirit throughout his career by investing his money in property. Barring a couple of minor embarrassments Norfolk impressed fans greatly in Panama and his fame spread all the way back to the United States. After having spent several years in Panama Norfolk shrudely returned to the USA and leveraged his reputation as the canal zone champion to immediately start getting the type of fights that had been denied him in the past. Short, compact, posessed of speed, a punch, and considerable ring craft Norfolk became a highly sought after fighter who could be counted to please paying customers. If he had an achilles heal it was the fact that at 5'8" and 180 pounds he was small for the larger HWs and with his short, powerful build he often couldnt perform at his best when cutting weight to accomodate smaller fighters. He was also supremely confident to the point of arrogance which on occasion found him entering the ring over-confident resulting some losses in fights he should have won. His reputation was such that Tommy Gibbons flat out refused to fight him for years. And when Tommy's townsman Billy Miske was at his best and claiming the LHW championship he fought Norfolk and got dominated. Norfolk tried for years to fight Battling Levinsky for the title only for Levinsky to spurn his challenges. Starting in 1918 Norfolk chased after Jack Dempsey but the closest he got was an offer in 1921 to join Dempsey's camp as a sparring partner. Initially Norfolk refused saying that he was a better fighter than Dempsey and would not lower himself to the position of "hired help" but at the urging of his manager Leo P. Flynn Norfolk demured, travelled to Dempsey's camp in the hope that showing up the champion might prompt calls for a match between the two only to have Kearns refuse him. Flynn had the largest stable of boxers in the country and between fights Norfolk was kept busy as a tutor, mentor, and sparring partner to Flynns fighters. The following year Norfolk was decided to be one of the two best black heavyweights by Tex Rickard and was pared with Harry Wills in an elimination to settle the right to face the champion. Wills easily knocked Norfolk out in two rounds ending any real aspirations he had to the HW championship. The following year Norfolk found himself in the spotlight again when he was matched with former LHW champion Battling Siki in the Garden upon Siki's first bout in the United States. Norfolk gave Siki an unmerciful beating for 14 rounds before getting caught and badly hurt in the final round. Norfolk hjng on to win a sensational victory. By this point Norfolk was over the hill. 6 months after Siki he fought MW champion Harry Greb in what was less a boxing match than a free for all wrestling match with both fighters accusing the other of starting the foul tactics. Norfolk struck Greb after the bell ending the final round of the fight which enraged Greb prompting him to attack. Amid the confusion Greb was disqualified and both fighters were suspended. The head of the boxing commission stated his intention of reversing the DQ and DQing Norfolk but the controversy caused such a furor that Boston had seen enough of the two and decided to move on in the hope that the controversy would die. Despite this Norfolk was DQd in his very next fight for the same tactics Greb had accused him of. Norfolk kicked for the next 6 months fighting retreads and looking like a fighter on the slide before Tommy Gibbons finally agreed to face the now fading Norfolk 7 years after promoters had tried so hard to get Tommy to agree to terms. Tommy himself was now past his prime but his clever St. Paul style had minimized the wear and tear and left him with more in the tank than Norfolk and as a result he easily beat the Kid in 6 rds. That was the last hurrah for Norfolk. He had a half dozen fights over the next two years looking all the while like a spent bullet before finally retiring in 1926. In retirement Norfolk hung around gyms offering advice to young fighters and lived off the income from his rental property.

 

Awesome!

 

I have read that Norfolk thumbed Greb in their first fight and this was responsible for him going blind in that eye.
I have also read that Norfolk himself was blind in one eye when they fought and that Greb said if he gets dirty I'll thumb him in his good eye.Can you confirm or show this was not the case please?

 

Grebs friends and family stated after he died that his blindness was a result of the first Norfolk fight. Ive never seen that quote you mentioned from Greb and dont believe he would have said it. While he certainly had that sort of mindset (that if you got rough with him hed pay you back in kind) but he was never overt about it. When Norfolk fought Lee Anderson in Phoenix earlier that year he took a bad beating and suffered a cut over one eye and bad swelling around the other. I have heard it told, and seen it printed, that he was blind in one eye as a result. I believe his vision did suffer but im not sure as to the extant of his blindness because some sources say he retired because he went totally blind as a result the vision in his bad eye. This is a very real concern called sympathetic opthalmia which Greb was trying to prevent when he had his bad eye removed shortly before his death. Essentially the blindness spreads from the bad eye to the good eye. I know it sounds implausible but I interviewed two specialists who work with boxers for my book and they confirmed it is a very real and very frightening possibility. With all of that being said this is not why Norfolk retired because I have an interview he gave years later and he could still see at that point. BUT, given some of his answers, he seemed punchy or at the very least to have significant memory issues.

So in short, Greb was probably blinded by Norfolk, whether it was a thumb or punch who knows.

Ive never seen that quote attributed to Greb and I doubt he would have said it.

Norfolk was possibly partially blind against Greb in their first fight. Whether that is because he had a detached retina, or merely because he wasnt fully healed from the Anderson fight, is hard to say.

Think about how tough these guys were though that being blind in one eye was nothing more than an occupational hazard. In 1917 Norfolk loses to Gus Christie who later that year undergoes eye surgery. The same year Norfolk is knocked out by Langford who is blind in one eye. In 1921 Norfolk himself likely loses the sight of one eye against Lee Anderson and a few months later likely blinds Greb who two years earlier had defeated Mike Gibbons who eventually retired due to failing vision and later loses his title to Flowers who dies having his eye operated on.