Kliltschko vs. Jack Johnson

Yes i can.

The fact that Fitzsimmons knocked out a fat 240lbs Dunkhorst is cool, but it says nothing about him being able to handle a skilled big man like Lennox Lewis, instead of what would usually be referred to as a big bum.

What you didn't mention is that Mcvey had 6, 8 and 10 fights when him and Johnson squared off. Yes maybe he's had a few bit more, but fact remains that outside of Johnson and Martin, his opponents up to then were very inexperienced and not established contenders or anything. By the way, Martin, who seems to have a pretty weak jaw, also beat Mcvey that year.

As i said, i'm talking about established top opponents, not 8 fight having teenagers.

On top of that, Johnson did not give up that much weight to Mcvey.

 

Well i wasn't talking about fighting in the clinches, i was just talking about Wlad tying his opponent up, which he has proved over and over against far bigger men than Johnson has.

 

But Johnson would fight in the clinches and Wlad wouldn´t know what to do. Also Wlad is not tying his opponents up, he only hugs them.

 

lighten up

 

No offense to Jack Johnson.. he was revolutionary in his time.. but he lost to Jesse Willard!

Klitschko would light him up in one round

 

:good


Finally a voice of reason!

 

You know that Johnson was 37 years old, undertrained and fat against Willard? And that he beat Willard up for the first 15-17 rounds? Willard did outlast an old, past his prime fighter in the heat of Havanna in over 20 rounds. That´s absolutly no evidence for a Johnson-Klitschko fight.

 

Jack Johnson is arguably the best defensive heavyweight of all time.

I doubt that any fighter in history could have defeated him inside a single round.

 

It means nothing. A flyweight could knock out my grand father, who is a cruiserweight, but by no means do that show that he can handle someone of that size.

It is all based on speculation. How many fights did young Mcvey have?

Marciano had only 20 amateur fights before going pro, and is considered green after that AND another 10-20 pro fights. The same holds for Mcvey. Of course the obscure fights he may have had were nothing like amateur fights in terms of safety or brutality, but on the other hand, his opponents likely were local tough men instead of well trained, skilled amateur boxers going on to be big names in the pro game.

Allow me to restate: he seemed to have serious durability problems. Not too surprising of course, for a 6'6 190lbs beansteak, although i've seen him listed as 6'4 as well.

Top3 in a period of extremely weak heavyweights, bar a couple.

Not that he was that going into the Johnson fight. He lost twice after that, including once by early round knockout. That pretty much rids of the top10.

Okay, but you have to admit that Mcvey was early in his career and his best years were still ahead of him. In fact, outside of losing-streak Martin, he did not have any bigs wins; it would be 4 years later for his first big win, against Jeannette. That's a long time.

A week? I'm still doing it right now.

Most of his top opponents were outweighed by a significant margin and the better big men that were available during his reign, i.e. Mcvey, Jeannette, Langford, were blatantly ducked when they entered their prime years.

Now i can live with fighting smaller heavyweights, for instance Marciano mostly beat men under 200lbs, but at least they were very good fighters; i'm not very impressed by Johnson's opponents. Again, Mcvey, Jeannette and Langford were very good fighters, but he never fought them when they were in their primes. That is not championship behaviour.

 

Only if you are really looking to lose said argument.

 

If you think i reduced Dunkhorst to a flyweight then you didn't understand the analogy.

Exactly, and Holmes, rightfully, gets a lot of **** for having faced inexperienced foes and not rematching them when they were more experienced.

Have you got evidence for this claim?

At any rate, almost all heavyweights (talking 201+lbs here) were getting beat up by their smaller counterparts. So yeah, the heavyweight pool was pretty talentless and small.

Because they were unknown, local fights, probably involving colored fighters who no one really cared about, outside of seeing them beat each other up on this particular occasion. Unless you think they kept a ranking system throughout the bars in towns; information spread was horrible back then.

Klitschko has durability problems, but Johnson was not a big hitter for a heavyweight (unless when fighting middleweights and lightheavies) and Klitschko has always excelled against small, defensive fighters without a big punch.

Refer to my earlier response on this subject.

If you're a contender and you lose twice, once by early knockout, within half a year time, you're out of the rankings 9/10 times. This is the way it works.

I'm not dismissing it, but you have to take into account that Martin was coming off two losses, one of which was quite devastating. If someone had beaten Ray Mercer after he just suffered two losses to Holyfield and Lewis, do you think that would've been a "huge" win?

No, and Mercer at least gave both a very tough fight, whereas Martin was stopped in 3. You can't ignore these things.

Actually, if you go to boxrec, you'll see that Klitschko never fought a single opponent that was smaller than 210lbs, who weren't losing to cruiserweights, middleweights and lightweights all over the place.

But i'm not dismissing Martin because of his durability, i'm just saying he came off two losses, which would've been a big black mark on his record in a time where records actually were widely available; unlike back then. And i'm still waiting for the source that reports Martin as being over 200lbs when he faced Johnson. Not that i don't believe it, but i've heard contradicting claims for it, which is no surprise considering even those things were unclear back then. Dito with Mcvey, any source on his weight against Johnson?

Okay, so what do we have so far? An 8 fight (+underground fights like amateur fights today, i.e. green) Mcvey and Martin coming off two losses?


That would have as much intelectual integrity as trying to cross a quater of Johnsons oponents off his record.



You can draw what conclusions you want about the quality of Johnsons oponents but what you cant do is claim that he was not proven against larger oponents at world level.

That is just like trying to argue that black is white or that the earth is flat.[/quote]

 

Chris you have to look at the fighters of their time at their time. You can´t take today´s standards and judge them by those. Today fighter fight 2-3 time a year, then they fought once a month. So, two losses in a row hurt today´s fighters far more then past fighters. Just as an example.

 

Lil Arthur kos Smokin Joe !